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What would it take for you personally to say *that's IT* we'
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iyar




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 1:01 pm
marina wrote:
I understand the desire for a utopia but theocracy doesn’t seem like a good idea


Theocracy is a great idea.
Theocracy is rule of God.
Isn't that what we daven for three times a day (or however times a day we manage to daven)? -That Hashem should rule over us again and be our King?
Which mortal human can possibly create a governing system better than the One who created all of us, created this earth and every plant, animal and non-organic molecule on it, created all the galaxies and their stars, comets, planets and black holes?
If we have Emunah and believe in Hashem, then theocracy is what we want.
If there are parts of the Torah that we don't understand- and there are such parts for every one of us - then Eliyahu Hanavi will reveal to us in the time of Mashiach the answers to all our doubts and questions.
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Raisin




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 16 2019, 4:33 pm
amother [ Cerulean ] wrote:
Why did you put blacks in quotation marks?


As for the OP, I admit that I have a pretty good life here in the US. If I could make aliyah without sacrificing my career, salary, or standard of living, I'd do it. I have no desire to start from the bottom, up again. DH and I do plan on buying a house in EY, so at the very least, we have a place to go if we do ever make the move.


One reason why so many ppl cant make aliya is due to the high price of housing, not helped by empty properties in prime locations belonging to chul Jews who use them a few weeks a year. Please reconsider this plan. (Unless you are planning to rent it out)
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imasoftov




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:16 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
Personally, I have had too many stories.
I have been heckled, I have been spoken down to.
This poor autistic teen who was beaten and arrested in a brutal manner by the police, it would NOT have happened if he did not look like a chassidic Jew.
I wish I did not feel this way, I was brought up to LOVE E"Y and I really do, I am happy I live here, but Jews in NY do not live with hatred towards daily in a way that I do. I am sorry that you do not like how I feel and how many of us do, I am sorry we do not do things based on the way you live your life, but this is what we have to live with..............
In the US if a politician or a mayor would speak badly of a certain group of people they would be out of a job, There are politicians that stake their entire career by talking bad about me, making up stories about me and their entire agenda is........anti me! Cuz Yes I am a charedi jew. How should that make me feel when I open the news?

Is that what you think blacks were subject to in the 1950's? How about segregation (even if haredim prefer separate schools, have no use for non-kosher restaurants, and many haredi women would rather ride in the back of the bus, I haven't seen separate hospitals, water fountains or restrooms), lynching (the last lynching was in 1981, and in case you aren't aware, a lynching is not a beating, but a murder, and sometimes the cause of a lynching was flirting with a white woman, e.g. Emmett Till in 1955, while there are some boys on the edge of haredi society but still look haredi who talk to secular girls I haven't heard of one being killed for that), legal obstacles to voting. I'm also not aware that haredim are expected to refer to secular people as sir/ma'am while they are called boy/girl.

And I also join Cerulean in wanting to know what you mean when you put quotation marks around blacks in your first post.
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bluebaker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:44 am
Just wanted to clarify, the reason for asking this question is to hear and understand what is it in the hearts of people who are adamant about staying OUTSIDE of Israel. Simply to understand. What is the issue exactly. I will also just add as an addendum, that all good things do come to an end, anyone with any sechel will understand quite clearly, judging by their neighbors in chutz Laeretz that it won't be long now before they shlep out the old poisoning the wells shtick and blame *the Jews* for something. But because things are really very bad on all levels, military wise and economically - not to mention the political arena - when the full-force of this shtick hits, it will be like Europe pre-shoah 2.0.

I would put a photo of a what me worry right here - but don't want to be too overbearing.

As you were.
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bluebaker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:47 am
1 - there is help with rentals and mortgages for olim

2 - there are affordable places to live (still) in EY - just maybe not exactly in the heart of the city. Some sacrifices (life is hard) must be made. But the upside is - zero pollution and safety to raise children


Raisin wrote:
One reason why so many ppl cant make aliya is due to the high price of housing, not helped by empty properties in prime locations belonging to chul Jews who use them a few weeks a year. Please reconsider this plan. (Unless you are planning to rent it out)
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bluebaker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:50 am
What we're waiting for is kingship. We are most definitely waiting for Tzemach David. This kingship can be kindled from afar while you wait - it is your own malchut - your connection to the King of Kings and to the king of Israel - David - by shining your light in this place with longing for Beit Hamikdash - where no wars, no pain, no corruption, no illness can ever transpire - you are in fact creating Kingship in Israel. That is called Lamlich Melech - to appoint a king.


iyar wrote:
Theocracy is a great idea.
Theocracy is rule of God.
Isn't that what we daven for three times a day (or however times a day we manage to daven)? -That Hashem should rule over us again and be our King?
Which mortal human can possibly create a governing system better than the One who created all of us, created this earth and every plant, animal and non-organic molecule on it, created all the galaxies and their stars, comets, planets and black holes?
If we have Emunah and believe in Hashem, then theocracy is what we want.
If there are parts of the Torah that we don't understand- and there are such parts for every one of us - then Eliyahu Hanavi will reveal to us in the time of Mashiach the answers to all our doubts and questions.


Last edited by bluebaker on Mon, Jun 17 2019, 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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bluebaker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:51 am
Extremely simple solution, if you come I will find you all tutors. Personal tutors that will immerse you in the language. You will be speaking and comprehending with a month.



amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
My family and I don’t speak fluent Hebrew and even with an Ulpan, I will never be as good as in my native tongue. Why should I move overseas and be a foreigner when I don’t need to. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I agree with the previous poster, even if Moshiach would come, it isn’t for everyone.
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bluebaker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 1:55 am
Wait a minute ------------ please understand what the Moshiach is to do - his work is to first (FIRST) birurim. Sifting, separating, banishing, inviting, collecting, grouping, assigning, naming - whoever should not be in EY will be gone. Those that should be in EY will be brought. Those that are be-safek will be known by Moshiach by the sense of smell who is who and which is which and tribal affiliation and who is a Kohein and who is a Levy. As far as the gentiles are concerned - those that will be bnei noach will be gerim lekol davar.


etky wrote:
Ok, so I don't get this.
What do the First and Second Temple periods have to do with Mashiach?
There was sooo much wrong with Am Yisrael in both eras but isn't the messianic period supposed to be one where those defects are erased and we reach a higher spiritual level centered around a Beit Hamikdash where Hashem's malchut is manifest to all - even the gentiles who will be making pilgrimages to Jerusalem too? Not to mention the ingathering of the exiles which is one of the quintessential markers of this period.
How would Am Yisrael staying in the Diaspora jibe with this picture?
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cinnamon




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 2:48 am
amother [ Natural ] wrote:
I am very happy that I live here! but I do think that Charedim should think twice, it is horrible how we are treated, I would compare it to the "blacks" in the 50's.


Seriously? I'm teated just fine thank you very much and so is my husband, my kids and my whole extendded family.
And as for the public sphare? Do you see the amount of yeshivas, kollelim and schools out there?
I don't think the state is "ראשית צמיחת גאולתינו" or anything but its a very good place to be chareidi.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 3:25 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I'm not sure if it's going to work that way. I think everyone will want to come. The question is, will we all be deemed worthy? Or maybe, if we've lived through whatever will immediately precede Moshiach, then that means we will be worthy.


I don't think everyone will want to move because nothing will change. People would still have to learn hebrew and rent will still be insane. My husband hates heat. He says he will never ever ever move to EY. It's also too dangerous according to him. My main issue is that for whatever reason I am terrible with Hebrew , I've tried to learn it a few times now and I get so frustrated.
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 3:31 am
There are lots of wonderful books, articles, as well as videos and shiurim available online for anyone who wishes to learn what the various commentators as well as text reveal about the time of Moshiach. It is very apparent that many people are ignorant of what is meant to be in store for the Jewish people as a special gift from Hashem. Anyone who is a religious Jew today should understand when we daven for Moshiach and ask Hashem daily to bring us the times that He promised us, what exactly is meant by that. If Hashem says we belong here, who really wants to disagree? The idea of change is hard for many. I get it. Hashem knows that. That's why changes will happen gradually as they already are, in the natural way before overt miracles on a daily basis. Just the fact that so many Jews have already come back to the Land, is kibbutz galiot started already. More will come and EY will expand and become perfected and considered the best place on Earth. In Shlomo Hamelech's time, it was considered the best. Just imagine what will be when every promise of Hashem comes true? No one in their right mind will want to be away and give up their inheritance of the most special place. What if your family are kohanim? Also don't want or feel the need to come? Some say every Jew will become a kohen...

Why do people want to be buried here at the very least? Those people pay lots of money for the privilege of being resurrected among the first and give up being buried where their family could visit often. It's a shame they couldn't live their life here but they know how important it is to return to the Land. It breaks my heart to hear a million reasons a Jew would give up living here, even after Moshiach comes. No difference than those who preferred staying in Mitzrayim when Hashem took us out. Now, I don't believe that will happen when push comes to shove, I believe Hashem will make it either necessary to leave to Israel because of danger or great desire will be put into the heart of every Jew. We were also forced out at Moshe's time. Nobody runs to changing times. Even coming from being a slave. We are told the geula will be a repeat of mitzrayim. Even more so with the countless differences in intensity and permanency for the final geula. It says Hashem will circumcise our hearts and get rid of the yetzer hara. The truth will be obvious and no one will have confusion.

It pays to study a bit to get excited for the changing times. To at least know what is meant to happen and what the Jewish role in the world will be and why you, of course, want to be part of it directly. To come early for a front row seat is even better and the reason why countless olim sacrifice much to do it for themselves and for a generation of children just as eager.

I understand the reasons why everyone doesn't come today but to not want to come when the geula is here...uh, that is ignorance or just the yetzer hara talking.
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 3:35 am
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
I don't think everyone will want to move because nothing will change. People would still have to learn hebrew and rent will still be insane. My husband hates heat. He says he will never ever ever move to EY. It's also too dangerous according to him. My main issue is that for whatever reason I am terrible with Hebrew , I've tried to learn it a few times now and I get so frustrated.


Sources say language will be restored as in the time before the generation of the tower of bavel so everyone will speak lashon hakodesh together. Money systems won't be the same. Parnassa will be different. The weather will revert to the perfect weather before the time of Noach which gave great longevity as well as perfect health and strength. All danger will be gone as well as you won't even need safes or passwords. No one would ever steal.

There is a solution for everything you wrote. After Moshiach, issues won't exist. Yes, there are sources for everything. It may be a process but eventually it will be perfect.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 3:36 am
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
I don't think everyone will want to move because nothing will change. People would still have to learn hebrew and rent will still be insane.


Sorry Hashem: not interested.
Too expensive and can't be bothered to learn Hebrew.
Try again in another two millenia.
And in the meantime I'll find some ideological/religious pretext to negate this "redemption" too so I can carry on as usual.
Geez, whatever was Hashem thinking? Mashiach. Lol Rolling Eyes
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 3:40 am
mandksima wrote:

It pays to study a bit to get excited for the changing times. To at least know what is meant to happen and what the Jewish role in the world will be and why you, of course, want to be part of it directly. To come early for a front row seat is even better and the reason why countless olim sacrifice much to do it for themselves and for a generation of children just as eager.

I understand the reasons why everyone doesn't come today but to not want to come when the geula is here...uh, that is ignorance or just the yetzer hara talking.


Actually, I think it's also a lack of imagination.
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bluebaker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 4:27 am
I don't like heat either - I was born in the winter and love cold, so there are cold parts in Israel - Israel not like other places - you want cold - there's cold. Hermon for one. Language? I will send you a group for English speakers in the North who can explain - you don't need PERFECT HEBREW because everyone in Israel speaks some English - literally.
I can also tutor you via Skype - no problem. Free. Or donation.


amother [ Jade ] wrote:
I don't think everyone will want to move because nothing will change. People would still have to learn hebrew and rent will still be insane. My husband hates heat. He says he will never ever ever move to EY. It's also too dangerous according to him. My main issue is that for whatever reason I am terrible with Hebrew , I've tried to learn it a few times now and I get so frustrated.
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grace413




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 4:30 am
We had this discussion not long ago.

It did not end well.

Just saying.

(And for anybody who doesn't know I've been very happy living in EY for many years).
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bluebaker




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 4:32 am
Let's also not forget, in times of famine, which may come to many parts of the world - google floods and food supplies, Israel is B"H bountiful with nothing missing. Even the water of the Kinneret is overflowing which is surely symbolic of abundance. So, people will be scrambling to make Aliyah, no joke, which is why it is crucial to really do a cheshbon nefesh about this before the masses decide it's time. You don't want to be on ships, but on planes. Ships will be for the last ones leaving. Ugh. Terrible way to make Aliyah. Sea sickness - not fun.


mandksima wrote:
There are lots of wonderful books, articles, as well as videos and shiurim available online for anyone who wishes to learn what the various commentators as well as text reveal about the time of Moshiach. It is very apparent that many people are ignorant of what is meant to be in store for the Jewish people as a special gift from Hashem. Anyone who is a religious Jew today should understand when we daven for Moshiach and ask Hashem daily to bring us the times that He promised us, what exactly is meant by that. If Hashem says we belong here, who really wants to disagree? The idea of change is hard for many. I get it. Hashem knows that. That's why changes will happen gradually as they already are, in the natural way before overt miracles on a daily basis. Just the fact that so many Jews have already come back to the Land, is kibbutz galiot started already. More will come and EY will expand and become perfected and considered the best place on Earth. In Shlomo Hamelech's time, it was considered the best. Just imagine what will be when every promise of Hashem comes true? No one in their right mind will want to be away and give up their inheritance of the most special place. What if your family are kohanim? Also don't want or feel the need to come? Some say every Jew will become a kohen...

Why do people want to be buried here at the very least? Those people pay lots of money for the privilege of being resurrected among the first and give up being buried where their family could visit often. It's a shame they couldn't live their life here but they know how important it is to return to the Land. It breaks my heart to hear a million reasons a Jew would give up living here, even after Moshiach comes. No difference than those who preferred staying in Mitzrayim when Hashem took us out. Now, I don't believe that will happen when push comes to shove, I believe Hashem will make it either necessary to leave to Israel because of danger or great desire will be put into the heart of every Jew. We were also forced out at Moshe's time. Nobody runs to changing times. Even coming from being a slave. We are told the geula will be a repeat of mitzrayim. Even more so with the countless differences in intensity and permanency for the final geula. It says Hashem will circumcise our hearts and get rid of the yetzer hara. The truth will be obvious and no one will have confusion.

It pays to study a bit to get excited for the changing times. To at least know what is meant to happen and what the Jewish role in the world will be and why you, of course, want to be part of it directly. To come early for a front row seat is even better and the reason why countless olim sacrifice much to do it for themselves and for a generation of children just as eager.

I understand the reasons why everyone doesn't come today but to not want to come when the geula is here...uh, that is ignorance or just the yetzer hara talking.
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etky




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 4:41 am
grace413 wrote:
We had this discussion not long ago.

It did not end well.

Just saying.

(And for anybody who doesn't know I've been very happy living in EY for many years).


Similar discussion.
This time we're talking about when Mashiach finally does come.
I understand the argument about waiting for Mashiach before making aliya to EY, even if I do not agree with it.
For the first time, however, I'm hearing the opinion that even after Mashiach arrives, some Jews will still prefer to remain in chutz la'aretz. In other words - reject the redemption and voluntarily opt to continue the punishment of galut.
That blows my mind.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 5:47 am
bluebaker wrote:
1 - there is help with rentals and mortgages for olim

2 - there are affordable places to live (still) in EY - just maybe not exactly in the heart of the city. Some sacrifices (life is hard) must be made. But the upside is - zero pollution and safety to raise children




As much help as there is, some people still will not be able to move for financial reasons.
Some people also aren't moving because their kids aren't good ages to move. And maybe they know their individual kids to know - and they might be getting some professional input from mechanchim, etc. - that moving might not be good for them.
Some people have family commitments. They might be taking care of parents. They might have married children who are not inclined to move, and as much as they love E"Y they don't want the physical distance.

I really hear you. It's starting to get hairy here, no question. But people have legitimate reasons for staying. I just listed a few. The sacrifices aren't advisable for them at this point.
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PinkFridge




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jun 17 2019, 5:52 am
amother [ Jade ] wrote:
I don't think everyone will want to move because nothing will change. People would still have to learn hebrew and rent will still be insane. My husband hates heat. He says he will never ever ever move to EY. It's also too dangerous according to him. My main issue is that for whatever reason I am terrible with Hebrew , I've tried to learn it a few times now and I get so frustrated.


Hold on a sec. Are we both talking about yemos Moshiach? Because if we are, you don't have to worry about rent, you will live in your nachala. I'm sure we'll catch on language-wise and there will be a lot of good will till then.

The weather? I can't help you. Maybe you'll live somewhere without intense humidity. But considering the climate disruption going on (I'm not big into man-made global warming but there's definitely something going on - the seasons seem to have shifted about 5-6 weeks) I don't know what it will be like to live anywhere. There are big trade-offs. All the warm places seem to have flooding, hurricanes, etc. I think that things will normalize after Moshiach comes. If not, I can live with it.

And re frustrations: I realize that language is frustrating for you. But you have no frustrations in your life due to galus? Do you like living in fear of crime? Do you like having your values debased? Do you like any and all the other stresses in your life that you won't experience in Yerushalayim habenuya and the entire EY?
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