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Vaccine question
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:07 pm
yksraya wrote:
I don't see a point in such a study. Bh the vast majority does vaccinate. And people bh have healthy kids. So why just compare kids. There are enough kids from anti vax homes that have issues, and enough fully vaxed homes with kids with no issues. It really has nothing with the vaccines.


Vaccine injuries are extremely rare. Those that blame vaccines for any issues their child has, are just pointing fingers although it usually has nothing to do with the vaccine. It's easier to find something to blame it on, than to admit their kid was born with issues.



Congratulations! Seems like you literally conducted the study by your own personal observation and concluded that many non vaxxed children have issues, and many vaxxed children don't have issues. There, study completed and results demonstrate that vaccines don't lead to all the health issues that are far more common today than 25 years ago. Thank you!

Again, there's no question that children today have many more diagnosis than a few decades ago. Maybe it's because of the vaccines and maybe it isn't. There has never been a study done (putting aside your own personal study, forgive me) that would help us reasonably determine if vaccines are the cause. I realize you say they aren't the cause and it's just pointing fingers, but there aren't any studies (except your own) substantiating this.
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polka dots




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:08 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
They are protected by herd immunity to the illness for which the vaccines provide protection.

OP is imagining a world were 'overall health' omits all vaccine preventable diseases. To see if vaccines are the culprit of everything else.


So the study will be ble to cover one aspect of vaccines but won’t include the risks of actually getting ill. If it were done in a place without herd immunity, some kids in the study may not survive childhood
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momsrus




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:09 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thank you. So you established that unvaxed individuals will get measles more than vaxed individuals. In your world, physical health issue is SOLVED.
The anti vaxxers claim that they think it's reasonable that perhaps the reason why so many more kids have ADD, ADHD, autism, asthma, food allergies, mental illness, and other chronic health conditions more so than in years past is because of the vaccines. They believe that the fatality rate in measles and other diseases eradicated by vaccines is so minuscule, that it's worth it for example to have 1 in 50,000 die of measles and not have 1 in 7 have chronic health conditions. A study comparing the 2 groups would help us understand if there is any basis to their claim. I don't think this is a big chiddush, and like I said earlier, I can't think of any reason a study has never been done.


U would love if you can prove to me that unvaxxed kids dont have allergies.

My kid got eczema way before his first shot.
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polka dots




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:11 pm
I know it doesn’t answer ops question ,but as a BTW my pediatrician claims that she has more autistic non vaxxed patients than vaccinated ones
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amother
Pink


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:12 pm
https://www.oatext.com/pdf/JTS-3-186.pdf
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amother
Ginger


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:17 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:



Congratulations! Seems like you literally conducted the study by your own personal observation and concluded that many non vaxxed children have issues, and many vaxxed children don't have issues. There, study completed and results demonstrate that vaccines don't lead to all the health issues that are far more common today than 25 years ago. Thank you!

Again, there's no question that children today have many more diagnosis than a few decades ago. Maybe it's because of the vaccines and maybe it isn't. There has never been a study done (putting aside your own personal study, forgive me) that would help us reasonably determine if vaccines are the cause. I realize you say they aren't the cause and it's just pointing fingers, but there aren't any studies (except your own) substantiating this.

I think we just like to lable things these days and name things 2 points I want to make.
1 is school expect so much more and perfect kids I had a sibling super smart but all over used to just walk around the classroom never had an adhd diagnosis or medicated is super successful in life but todays world would not be ok.
2 How many times I read posts here like hey I think I am add/ asbergers or _____ must have been the reason I had trouble in school . Kids struggled in school in the 80s-90s ( I am sure earler years also) and they were made to feel stupid no help no dignosis no nothing don't think problems didn't exist. it did just as an unknown with kids feeling like failures.
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:25 pm
polka dots wrote:
I know it doesn’t answer ops question ,but as a BTW my pediatrician claims that she has more autistic non vaxxed patients than vaccinated ones


This is exactly the type of thing that OP was advocating studying. I don't see why it would be so difficult to do. Look at general health records of kids who were and weren't vaccinated, and check specifically for those issues that anti-vaxxers claim are caused by vaccines. Other risk factors should already be in the records, and it could easily be done using existing records. They could either ask parents permission for including their kids records, or, better still, remove names etc in order for it to be anonymous.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:26 pm
amother [ Oak ] wrote:
I fully vax too and think that's a good question.
I have another thought. Why are we so trusting of the pharmaceutical companies? Are they so holy and pure? Anyone think they behave totally honest and trustworthy? I have heard firsthand of bribing behaviors. And this makes me become wary.
The same way one would question a doctor or dentist when they want to prescribe or give more than is indicated, when they want to give more anesthesia than is needed etc? They admit that they get paid per dose. Ask your doctor how much they get paid per vaccine. Why do you think lots of products get promoted. Why will a doctor suddenly want to switch brands of a medication that's already prescribed, even when theres a risk of changing?
I agree and believe that since vaxxing is accepted practice nowadays that's what we should do. But I can hear hesitation.
We know that bribery blinds the eyes of tzadikim! Even when they barely realize it themselves! Yet doctors are supposed to be above that. They aren't.
I would like to hear what others say to all this. I feel like this point wasn't ever really discussed.


Re: the bolded....what a joke! Doctors do not get paid much at all for giving vaccines. They'd get paid much more for treating a case of measles.

I trust my doctor who is a close family member and has many years experience with thousands of patients.
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yksraya




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:31 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:



Congratulations! Seems like you literally conducted the study by your own personal observation and concluded that many non vaxxed children have issues, and many vaxxed children don't have issues. There, study completed and results demonstrate that vaccines don't lead to all the health issues that are far more common today than 25 years ago. Thank you!

Again, there's no question that children today have many more diagnosis than a few decades ago. Maybe it's because of the vaccines and maybe it isn't. There has never been a study done (putting aside your own personal study, forgive me) that would help us reasonably determine if vaccines are the cause. I realize you say they aren't the cause and it's just pointing fingers, but there aren't any studies (except your own) substantiating this.

What I'm actually trying to say is, that todays health issues haven't magically skipped the non vaxers, they too have kids with all kinds of issues, same as for kids who were vaxxed. Which basically means that the issues is not shots related but genetics etc. Not a study, but just some basic logic...
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:33 pm
amother [ Pink ] wrote:
https://www.oatext.com/pdf/JTS-3-186.pdf




Chronic illness
Vaccinated children were significantly more likely than the
unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with the following: allergic
rhinitis (10.4% vs. 0.4%, p <0.001; OR 30.1, 95% CI: 4.1, 219.3), other
allergies (22.2% vs. 6.9%, p <0.001; OR 3.9, 95% CI: 2.3, 6.6), eczema/
atopic dermatitis (9.5% vs. 3.6%, p = 0.035; OR 2.9, 95% CI: 1.4, 6.1), a
learning disability (5.7% vs. 1.2%, p = 0.003; OR 5.2, 95% CI: 1.6, 17.4),
ADHD (4.7% vs. 1.0%, p = 0.013; OR 4.2, 95% CI: 1.2, 14.5), ASD (4.7%
vs. 1.0%, p = 0.013; OR 4.2, 95% CI: 1.2, 14.5), any neurodevelopmental
disorder (I.e., learning disability, ADHD or ASD) (10.5% vs. 3.1%, p
<0.001; OR 3.7, 95% CI: 1.7, 7.9) and any chronic illness (44.0% vs.
25.0%, p <0.001; OR 2.4, 95% CI: 1.7, 3.3).

I copied this from the results of the study. It seems clear that there are some meaningful long term issues that were significantly more likely in the vaccinated children as opposed to unvaccinated children, including learning disabilities and chronic illness. This was a small study done several years ago. It's surprising, especially considering the results, that follow up studies haven't been conducted.
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:39 pm
To try to answer the OP’s actual question, I would imagine it’s because it would be considered unethical to conduct a true double blind proper study in this area because it would be unethical to withhold vaccines from children when they are known to save lives. You seem to be advocating more of an observational study, though, where you look back at the history of kids who have already gone through childhood either with or without vaccines, but such studies are considered inherently weaker and open to bias, and there would therefore be immediate claims (from whichever side) that the results are invalid.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:39 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Chronic illness
Vaccinated children were significantly more likely than the
unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with the following: allergic
rhinitis (10.4% vs. 0.4%, p <0.001; OR 30.1, 95% CI: 4.1, 219.3), other
allergies (22.2% vs. 6.9%, p <0.001; OR 3.9, 95% CI: 2.3, 6.6), eczema/
atopic dermatitis (9.5% vs. 3.6%, p = 0.035; OR 2.9, 95% CI: 1.4, 6.1), a
learning disability (5.7% vs. 1.2%, p = 0.003; OR 5.2, 95% CI: 1.6, 17.4),
ADHD (4.7% vs. 1.0%, p = 0.013; OR 4.2, 95% CI: 1.2, 14.5), ASD (4.7%
vs. 1.0%, p = 0.013; OR 4.2, 95% CI: 1.2, 14.5), any neurodevelopmental
disorder (I.e., learning disability, ADHD or ASD) (10.5% vs. 3.1%, p
<0.001; OR 3.7, 95% CI: 1.7, 7.9) and any chronic illness (44.0% vs.
25.0%, p <0.001; OR 2.4, 95% CI: 1.7, 3.3).

I copied this from the results of the study. It seems clear that there are some meaningful long term issues that were significantly more likely in the vaccinated children as opposed to unvaccinated children, including learning disabilities and chronic illness. This was a small study done several years ago. It's surprising, especially considering the results, that follow up studies haven't been conducted.


Even if such a study was properly done and even if the results are accurate, it doesn't prove that the vaccine was the cause because there were likely to be other variables.
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:43 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
any chronic illness (44.0% vs. 25.0%


Really? Even saying 25% of all children have a chronic illness - that seems incredibly high! What do they consider a chronic illness?
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:48 pm
yksraya wrote:
What I'm actually trying to say is, that todays health issues haven't magically skipped the non vaxers, they too have kids with all kinds of issues, same as for kids who were vaxxed. Which basically means that the issues is not shots related but genetics etc. Not a study, but just some basic logic...



And you are substantiating this claim by......???

For example, how do you know that learning disabilities is as common in non vaxxers as it is in vaxxers? Be specific please.
The fact that you have a friend Perel Roizy, who is a known anti vaxxer, and she has 2 children, blima ruchel, and chaim duvid, and they were both left back 3 times, does not prove your point.
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amother
Magenta


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:54 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Chronic illness
Vaccinated children were significantly more likely than the
unvaccinated to have been diagnosed with the following: allergic
rhinitis (10.4% vs. 0.4%, p <0.001; OR 30.1, 95% CI: 4.1, 219.3), other
allergies (22.2% vs. 6.9%, p <0.001; OR 3.9, 95% CI: 2.3, 6.6), eczema/
atopic dermatitis (9.5% vs. 3.6%, p = 0.035; OR 2.9, 95% CI: 1.4, 6.1), a
learning disability (5.7% vs. 1.2%, p = 0.003; OR 5.2, 95% CI: 1.6, 17.4),
ADHD (4.7% vs. 1.0%, p = 0.013; OR 4.2, 95% CI: 1.2, 14.5), ASD (4.7%
vs. 1.0%, p = 0.013; OR 4.2, 95% CI: 1.2, 14.5), any neurodevelopmental
disorder (I.e., learning disability, ADHD or ASD) (10.5% vs. 3.1%, p
<0.001; OR 3.7, 95% CI: 1.7, 7.9) and any chronic illness (44.0% vs.
25.0%, p <0.001; OR 2.4, 95% CI: 1.7, 3.3).

I copied this from the results of the study. It seems clear that there are some meaningful long term issues that were significantly more likely in the vaccinated children as opposed to unvaccinated children, including learning disabilities and chronic illness. This was a small study done several years ago. It's surprising, especially considering the results, that follow up studies haven't been conducted.


Despite its limitations the study is interesting.
What specifically jumped out at me was the 20% gap between the number of children who had a well visit checkup in the past 12 months.

Vaccinated 57.6%
Unvaccinated 37.2%

This is very revealing and discredits the results for me.

The participants were 91.1 % Christian.
All homeschooled.
62.8% of the unvaccinated children did not have a regular well visit.
This fits the profile of parents who are distrustful of the medical establishment and adhere to the Christian belief that G-d created perfect humans who need no intervention.
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:55 pm
amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:
I fully vax too (just because that’s what’s done, I’m not a strong pro-vaxxer) and I think it’s a good question. Why are people so defensive? And comparing not vaxxing to Nazi death camps! Sheesh. Everyone should embrace more knowledge.


Because both groups have people dying and the survivors are the strongest.
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amother
Orange


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:58 pm
polka dots wrote:
I know it doesn’t answer ops question ,but as a BTW my pediatrician claims that she has more autistic non vaxxed patients than vaccinated ones

Gee, what came first the chicken or the egg?
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amother
Aquamarine


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 9:59 pm
yksraya wrote:
What I'm actually trying to say is, that todays health issues haven't magically skipped the non vaxers, they too have kids with all kinds of issues, same as for kids who were vaxxed. Which basically means that the issues is not shots related but genetics etc. Not a study, but just some basic logic...


Their kids' issues are much less likely to be labeled and diagnosed because non- vaxing parents are not the brightest.
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amother
OP


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 10:01 pm
amother [ Periwinkle ] wrote:
To try to answer the OP’s actual question, I would imagine it’s because it would be considered unethical to conduct a true double blind proper study in this area because it would be unethical to withhold vaccines from children when they are known to save lives. You seem to be advocating more of an observational study, though, where you look back at the history of kids who have already gone through childhood either with or without vaccines, but such studies are considered inherently weaker and open to bias, and there would therefore be immediate claims (from whichever side) that the results are invalid.



Absolutely true. A double blind study is impossible. An observational study, while weaker, is still the best way to go.
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amother
Gold


 

Post Sat, Jun 15 2019, 10:02 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
Despite its limitations the study is interesting.
What specifically jumped out at me was the 20% gap between the number of children who had a well visit checkup in the past 12 months.

Vaccinated 57.6%
Unvaccinated 37.2%

This is very revealing and discredits the results for me.

The participants were 91.1 % Christian.
All homeschooled.
62.8% of the unvaccinated children did not have a regular well visit.
This fits the profile of parents who are distrustful of the medical establishment and adhere to the Christian belief that G-d created perfect humans who need no intervention.


This! The study was based on responses by the mothers of the children. It asked them to respond whether their child was diagnosed with these illnesses by a physician. Doesn't seem like an accurate way to measure actual rates of illness.
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