Feminism | Imamother

Fox

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:53 am

ora_43 wrote:

Here is why "feminism" still has meaning: because nearly everyone who self-describes as "feminist" can agree on certain core issues. Feminists might disagree over whether gender differences are biological, sociological or both; over whether the root of sexism lies in history or politics or capitalism or biology; over whether parading topless in the street is a proud protest of the patriarchy or a sad sign of brainwashing by the patriarchy.

Except that this isn't really true.

When people are polled, approximately 88 percent agree that women should have equal legal standing, rights, and opportunities. But only bout 25 percent describe themselves as feminists.

That's a huge gap, and what it means is that a majority of people do not define feminism as simply equality under the law, etc. However much Imamothers insist on that definition, it's a definition that's at least 40 years out of date.

Check out the website for the National Organization for Women -- the flagship feminist organization. One of their main interests is abortion rights. By their standards, anyone who is even moderately pro-life cannot be a feminist. They also include a number of socialist-oriented economic ideas as part of feminism. And, of course, they make race a focal point.

So while everyone here can argue long and loud that feminism is "just" about equal treatment and opportunity, that isn't what most people see when they look at contemporary feminism.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 11:56 am

Fox wrote:

That's ridiculous.

You're a Trump-supporting conservative. Do you agree with everything that he says? I'm going to assume not, since you're also an intelligent, thinking person, and no intelligent, thinking person agrees with anyone 100% of the time. But that also doesn't mean that you're not a Trump-supporting conservative.

FTR, I am, of course, a proud feminist.

Fox

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 12:01 pm

SixOfWands wrote:

You're changing the argument. I'm not making the point that one cannot be a feminist and still disagree with NOW on some issues. I'm making the point that by NOW's definition, these issues are inextricably bound up with feminism.

Nor is this issue unique to NOW -- I used that organization as an example because it's the one most identified with Second Wave feminism.

Look at The Women's March. Even before it became problematic for other reasons, they specifically excluded pro-life groups. If feminism were "just" about equal opportunity, there would be room under the tent for a variety of views. But that's not the case.

amother

Red

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 12:42 pm

ora_43 wrote:

That's a good argument that has nothing to do with what I've been saying.

I have not once said that women shouldn't be involved in the family budget. I've literally been saying the opposite of that, that both partners should be involved.

What we disagree on is the idea that 1. the partner who is better with math will be better at budgeting, 2. budgeting is complicated, and if the wrong person does it they'll make a complete mess of it, 3. it's fine for one partner to not be involved in the budget at all.

I don’t disagree with you re: math vs budgeting. Obviously the person most suited to the job is the one best at budgeting! Math was used in place of gambling in the original argument that’s all. And if someone hates anything mathematical even if good at budgeting, then they maybe should defer the calculations to the other spouse.

Ravenclaw

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 2:09 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

Hey, I'm looking for friends like you! I relate very little to the women's chatter & enjoy the men's conversation so much more. I also skip out the the kitchen whenever I possibly can. I often joke, I should have been born a man.

To me this post is the opposite of feminism.
After we got married my husband complimented me by saying, “You are so smart it’s a pity you aren’t a man.”
To me that is the best example of the subtle misogyny seeping into our culture.

amother

Coral

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 2:22 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

Being a feminist doesn't work in the frum world because the gender roles are so rigid. I undermined my marriage with my late husband by not accepting traditional roles which I didn't do consciously.

I didn't go to the kitchen to help with the other women. Both LDH and I were strong earners. I didn't relate to the women in his family. I didn't have as much in common with a Walmart cashier(f) as I did with a banker(m). I joined the men while the women were prepping in the kitchen. I spoke to the men primarily about politics and the economy which caused the women's eyes to glaze over.

My second marriage works out so much better with the traditional roles.

This is the saddest thing I’ve read today. Please don’t go around telling women that they must adopt traditional gender roles or their marriages are doomed.

My husband married me for my brain, FYI. And I hate the kitchen.

SixOfWands

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 2:42 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

Then again, our friends hardly fit into any stereotypical gender roles. The women are doctors and attorneys and engineers and business owners, among other things. And so are the men.

Of course, I'm just as likely to converse about recipes and fashion as I am about sports or politics or news.

amother

Maroon

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 3:32 pm

amother [ Smokey ] wrote:

I am going to assume your second marriage works better with you in the kitchen because you belong to a very traditional community.

It almost sounds like a 50s Stepford community, with all the men doing one thing, all the women doing another, and marriages being at risk if they don't adhere to the formula.

I'm already 50 and I have yet to live in a community where things work that way (I've come across it, yes, but never lived in it). Men and women both prep in the kitchen in my circles, in fact a lot of men enjoy cooking. And most of the conversations are mixed, with everyone joining in, be they about politics or the baby's teething.

Sometimes the women discuss things on their own, female body stuff (like periods, laser, birth) or more general issues (from marriage. literature, fashion, politics to simply sharing our lives) - but these are only part of the general discussion, not ALL of it, not something that stops them from conversing with the men too.

There is no reason for men and women to sequester themselves in separate rooms, most of the conversations (in my circles) interest both genders.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 3:51 pm

Ravenclaw wrote:

I think the context missing in posts like mine & others is the type of community we grew up in. I grew up in a very strict & rigid Chassidishe community where woman and men never intermingled. Even as a child after the age of 6, I barely said a word or two to my male cousins, & its an extremely big No-No to speak with them after their Bar Mitzvah. And don't even think about it after marriage. I can't even recall the last time any of my uncles even acknowledged my presence. And the lines are deeply drawn in regards to roles & responsibilities & everyone toes the line.

So, yes. Being a woman who craved intelligent and deep conversation, instead of discussions about menus, baking, shopping & brand name clothing (the stuff I labeled as chatter), I always wished I was born a man. Not because of feminism ideals, and not because of misogynistic ideals, I just longed to have a decent discussion with someone & find a confidante & friend. I was bored stiff out of my mind sitting with family, and was very very lonely. So in my world, I wanted to be a man.

Misogyny hasn't seeped into my culture, it's been a long established setup. Saying that I want to be a man, is my way of saying that I've had enough of this misogynistic delegations of duties and responsibilities & I would just love to be able to be true to myself. In my world, being a man seems to be the only way to achieve it. In my world, saying you want to be man is stating that you're unhappy with the misogynistic framework of the community.

Zehava

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 3:59 pm

amother [ Pearl ] wrote:

You haven’t socialized with men, by your own admission, so let me tell you something.
Your struggle is the classic struggle of a deep thinker in a world full of chatter. This crosses gender lines.
I do know many men. They chatter. A lot. Maybe not about clothes. But about money. And cars. And houses. There is lots of overt bragging. Also lots of political talk which I find just as boring.
You have way more of a chance finding a confidante and friend in a woman. Men don’t do DMCs. They share less. They help each other more by doing and less by talking.
I’m just saying

amother

Maroon

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 4:10 pm

Zehava wrote:

It's true that men also chatter.
I live in a mixed community. Once in a while the men and women separate off into different conversation circles.
Men's talk is no deeper than women's, unless you consider sports/cars/housing prices/action movies do be particularly deep topics.

The deeper topics (society, politics, ideology, culture, etc) are not inherently male.

amother

Pearl

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 4:11 pm

Zehava wrote:

In that case, I must be running in all of the wrong circles. Where can I find the type of women I'm looking for?

iyar

Tue, Jun 18 2019, 4:18 pm

delicious wrote:

Okay, I wasn't sure what feminism is, and I am still not, as there seems to be a varying of "THIS is what feminism is", quite an amount of interesting yet different views. I wanted to share a story and feel free to interpret.

I went to Manhattan yesterday. About a block away from my destination there was a parking spot, a tight one, but I hoped I could squeeze in.

So I'm starting my park, and it's directly in front of a coffee shop, with about 20 people waiting outside to get in. Of course, they're all looking and begin to talk about the parking. They watched to see if I would be able to get in.

One guy, a black, comes closer to my car, and I began to get nervous. I mean, I would probably cross the street if it were him and myself on a quiet street.

He tells me "I'm gonna help you park. I'm a truck driver and if anyone can do it's gonna be me"

(Here I wonder what the feminist attitude is?)

In any case, I followed his instructions, relied on him to tell me when to turn the wheel this way and that way, with my entire audience watching.

I was blushing, but it was pretty funny.

In either case, it was too of a tight spot and after a few minutes he said "na, you're not going to make it'. He seemed a bit embarrassed that he had to admit that.

I was disappointed, didn't hide it and sat there for a second to get my strength to continue circling.

(Here I also wonder if as a feminist, I would be more macho and say-It's okay, I'll be fine...)

Didn't take more than a second for him to say "hey, I got a spot a coupla cars ahead, it's a bigger spot, I'll switch with you!"

So that's what happened, we switched.

I come back to pay the muni meter, which is right near my old-his new spot, and I see that he could not get his car into the spot!!

Of course I thank him. He makes this big announcement that 'it's okay I didn't fit, cuz I'm only gonna be here a coupla minutes, and she's gonna be here for longer"

I found it amazing, that a macho guy, who announced that he was a truck driver and could help me get in, would give up his spot, and even appear foolish to the crowd as he couldn't even get HIS car into the spot, all for a woman who couldn't park and relied on him. If a woman is a woman, even the toughest man can have an urge to be a man.

I liked your story.
I had to chime in because I'm THE woman who gets scared alone at night on a dark street if she's sees a male over 4' tall. I don't know what that says about my feminism or femininity. I will tell you my fear has no connection to the color of said male. I think you should consider deleting this bit of information from your story.