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Math skills and finances (s/o feminism)
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:30 am
I didn't want to hijack the feminism discussion since this particular has little to do with gender, but I wanted to share my perspective on math skills and finances.

A lot of women here say they don't have much to do with their family finances because they're bad at math (and on the other thread, there's a discussion of men with poor math skills and what their role should be in finances). I believe that math skills is a poor excuse. You don't need to be Good Will Hunting or one of the Hidden Figures ladies to be an active participant or even in charge of household finances. I know this because I'm in charge of the finances even though dh is WAY better at math than I am. Dh is an engineer, it doesn't get much more math-y than that. I have always struggled with math, and I am that person who jokes all the time about how useless the trigonometry I slogged through in high school has been in my adult life.

But here's the thing. I don't need to remember what the purpose of a cosine is to figure out that if $10,000 is coming into to bank every month, and $11,000 is being spent every month, that's a problem and something needs to be done about it. It's not rocket science. I also don't need to be that good at math to know if my investments are going up, that's good, and if my investments are going down, that's bad. Unlike school exams, in real life, you're allowed to use a calculator. Larger questions, such as what are our financial goals, how much should we be saving, how risky or conservative should our investments be, these are not math questions. These are philosophical questions that we discuss together.

The reason I'm in charge of the finances is because I have the less demanding career and therefore more time to do it. Dh is involved to the extent of being consulted on one of the larger questions listed above, and being told how much we have in checking if he asks. Anyway, that's my soapbox, you don't need to be that good at math to be on top of your household finances. If you would still prefer the secondary role (as my dh does) that's fine, I just think it's important to be aware that if you do want to be more involved but numbers scare you, there are lots of ways to take an active role without doing much with numbers beyond greater than/less than.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:38 am
I agree that women should at least be aware of the finances. exDH told me that "I don't need to worry about things." Little did I realize at the time, he was using it as a way of controlling me. I didn't get any red flags until I said "CVS if something should happen to you, I need to know how to manage the bills." He got really upset and changed the subject.

When he went out of town for business, I went through the filing cabinets, and couldn't find a single scrap of paper about our finances. No bank statements, not even a water bill. It was eerie. I know he doesn't do bills online, because he doesn't trust computers. He took everything with him every time he left the house!

Now, I am atrocious at math, and do struggle with organization and paying things on time. That is mostly because I simply don't have enough money to cover everything each month, so some things need to be put off or juggled. I'm working on getting help to keep track of things and stay on top of them.

I don't ever want to be dependent on a man again, when it comes to day to day practical things. Life skills are not gendered. Everyone should know how to take care of themselves.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:49 am
Hi,

My DH is also an engineer. I disagree with you that you do need more than a feel for math for investing. You need to understand inverse proportions and fractional banking and a whole host of other junk not to be sold products that have the highest commissions - hidden or otherwise. You need a feel for the economy and how it effects investments. You don't need cosines for this though.

You already have more math than most on this site since you know what a cosine is. You already have more math than many DHs.

The thing is that DHs are educated in logic through gemura. Logic is math based even if it isn't apparent. I would rather a logic trained person handle finances than someone not trained in logic given that neither has a strong formal education.

You appear to be from a different world than most of the people in my community. Are you aware of the gap in secular education? Some schools are trying to fill the gap with adulting courses (even though they aren't calling it that).

I agree in part that anyone can see that if you are spending more than you are taking in, that it's problematic.
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amother
Bronze


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:57 am
my mother was a public school math teacher. Whenever I tell my dh that other people are involved in my mother's finances because she struggles this stuff he finds it so perplexing. Yes she can add but the organizational skills to be on top of things, the decision making skills to figure stuff out.... that is where she has trouble.

I agree with you finances is not just math.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 5:58 am
I’m great at math, a lot better than dh, but he does the finances. It wasn’t a conscious decision but I’m glad he’s the one. He’s the main breadwinner and I’m glad he takes the responsibility to manage our finances.

I really don’t think it’s the math that matters as much as responsibility and common sense.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:02 am
One of my best friends has a master's degree in math. She took it "just for fun". She's brilliant, but if a clasp breaks on a necklace, it's the end of the world.

I'm a jewelry designer, and art comes naturally to me. She would bring me all of her broken jewelry, and she thought I was a genius because I knew how to replace a simple jump ring.

I went to Ulpan with a woman who was learning her NINTH language!

Everyone's brain works differently.
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:05 am
I think a lot of the whole female aversion to math thing starts at home. How many parents tell their kids that they can't help with their homework because 'they were never any good at math anyway?' We need to stop giving our kids the message that they can opt out of effort in math classes if they weren't gifted with some natural talent.

Math skills are so important in so many areas of life- figuring out how much an item will be with a discount, comparing prices on different brands of yogurt, figuring out the best use of credit card points at different hotel chains, comparing insurance policies with different benefits and deductibles, the list goes on and on. This goes for men and women, but, in my experience, women and girls are more likely to cry 'I can't do math' than men and boys. And it's a real shame.
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amother
Firebrick


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:12 am
I'm really good at math (engineering major math minor) and have much more math education than my husband with a high school diploma. My husband does the finances and knows way more about it than me. He's educated himself on it, likes it, and I don't.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:32 am
Azure, some of us women learn gemara too (and yes, I'm aware that this means I'm in a totally different community, just as I'm aware that some communities don't give much of a secular education. Even so, they do learn how to add and subtract). Also, even though I don't know much math, I am familiar with different financial products and which are more risky and which are safer. How much risk to take, is again, a philosophical question, and one that I do discuss with dh. He may use more actual math to make his decision than I do, but it's still something we discuss together. I'm the one who knows when we need to have that discussion though, and ultimately, I'm the one who talks to the account manager.

I agree with the others that it's more about practical/organizational skills than math. Dh has the more demanding career and less time and he's also not so organized. He would totally forget to pay a bill. I don't think he realizes how many different bills there are, especially since so many of them are paid by credit card (which we pay off in full every month). So he knows a big credit card bill gets paid every month, but he's not aware that this includes the car insurance and tuition, and Netflix, and this or that magazine etc.
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amother
Amethyst


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:36 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
I didn't want to hijack the feminism discussion since this particular has little to do with gender, but I wanted to share my perspective on math skills and finances.

A lot of women here say they don't have much to do with their family finances because they're bad at math (and on the other thread, there's a discussion of men with poor math skills and what their role should be in finances). I believe that math skills is a poor excuse. You don't need to be Good Will Hunting or one of the Hidden Figures ladies to be an active participant or even in charge of household finances. I know this because I'm in charge of the finances even though dh is WAY better at math than I am. Dh is an engineer, it doesn't get much more math-y than that. I have always struggled with math, and I am that person who jokes all the time about how useless the trigonometry I slogged through in high school has been in my adult life.

But here's the thing. I don't need to remember what the purpose of a cosine is to figure out that if $10,000 is coming into to bank every month, and $11,000 is being spent every month, that's a problem and something needs to be done about it. It's not rocket science. I also don't need to be that good at math to know if my investments are going up, that's good, and if my investments are going down, that's bad. Unlike school exams, in real life, you're allowed to use a calculator. Larger questions, such as what are our financial goals, how much should we be saving, how risky or conservative should our investments be, these are not math questions. These are philosophical questions that we discuss together.

The reason I'm in charge of the finances is because I have the less demanding career and therefore more time to do it. Dh is involved to the extent of being consulted on one of the larger questions listed above, and being told how much we have in checking if he asks. Anyway, that's my soapbox, you don't need to be that good at math to be on top of your household finances. If you would still prefer the secondary role (as my dh does) that's fine, I just think it's important to be aware that if you do want to be more involved but numbers scare you, there are lots of ways to take an active role without doing much with numbers beyond greater than/less than.


LOL are you me? This is literally our situation, except my husband is a resident. He doesn’t have the time to deal with finances, so I took it over, even though I am genuinely bad at math. It’s not something that comes easily to me but I work hard at it. A budgeting program like YNAB really, really helps.

Now the bills are paid on time Smile
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:37 am
DD has always struggled with math, and is consistently 3 grades behind her class.

She gets nothing but praise from me with every little achievement. I always tell her that I know how hard she works, and how proud I am of her.

Now that she's living in the US, she sends me snapshots of her math homework and report cards. She's gaining skills very quickly, and the more positive feedback she gets, the harder she tries.

I never let "being bad at math" be an excuse not to try. Not everyone can be Einstein, but everyone can do the best that they can.

(Also, I stressed very early on, the value of learning calculator skills so she can check her own work. That helped a lot.)
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:39 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Azure, some of us women learn gemara too (and yes, I'm aware that this means I'm in a totally different community, just as I'm aware that some communities don't give much of a secular education. Even so, they do learn how to add and subtract). Also, even though I don't know much math, I am familiar with different financial products and which are more risky and which are safer. How much risk to take, is again, a philosophical question, and one that I do discuss with dh. He may use more actual math to make his decision than I do, but it's still something we discuss together. I'm the one who knows when we need to have that discussion though, and ultimately, I'm the one who talks to the account manager.

I agree with the others that it's more about practical/organizational skills than math. Dh has the more demanding career and less time and he's also not so organized. He would totally forget to pay a bill. I don't think he realizes how many different bills there are, especially since so many of them are paid by credit card (which we pay off in full every month). So he knows a big credit card bill gets paid every month, but he's not aware that this includes the car insurance and tuition, and Netflix, and this or that magazine etc.


Same. My DH has a math degree and I have a computer science degree but he works much longer hours than I do and I was also single for many years so I have plenty of experience with bills. He would put everything on auto pay and not track things if I left him in charge.
I work part time and manage the household, which includes paying all bills. I just have the better organizational skills.
We do discuss finances all the time and I show him my spreadsheets Smile
All large purchases are absolutely discussed.
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:41 am
groisamomma and I will be quick to chime in here, since we are math teachers.

The math skills being mentioned on this thread are taught in 6th-7th grade for the most part. I always say that to be an adult, you realistically don't need more than a middle school education in math. None of the stuff you're taught in high school is particularly important for the general public (although understanding how studies work and the nuances of statistics should be taught more explicitly, IMO).

For the poster who said you need to know all those things to invest money properly -- a lot of that is financial literacy and not general math skills. You need to take classes to really understand what goes on with investing. You also, dare I say, need to have mazel. A lot of people who are really good at math make bad investments. I have a bachelor's degree in math and took lots of advanced statistics classes, but I still don't consider myself knowledgeable when it comes to investing. When DH finishes his software engineering degree and starts making money BE'H, we will need to look into investing together and learn more about it. I took advanced math classes, but not advanced finance classes.

Ultimately, I don't know if being good at math is necessary to manage finances. I think that good organizational skills and decent logical reasoning skills should be enough. Logical reasoning doesn't need to be completely tied to math, though people who are good at math tend to be better with logical reasoning.


Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Azure


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:42 am
groovy1224 wrote:
I think a lot of the whole female aversion to math thing starts at home. How many parents tell their kids that they can't help with their homework because 'they were never any good at math anyway?' We need to stop giving our kids the message that they can opt out of effort in math classes if they weren't gifted with some natural talent.

Math skills are so important in so many areas of life- figuring out how much an item will be with a discount, comparing prices on different brands of yogurt, figuring out the best use of credit card points at different hotel chains, comparing insurance policies with different benefits and deductibles, the list goes on and on. This goes for men and women, but, in my experience, women and girls are more likely to cry 'I can't do math' than men and boys. And it's a real shame.


It starts much earlier than elementary school. I have seen it on young children before school. There is something that attracts girls to pink and boys to blue. Baby girls are attached to faces and baby boys to wheels. There is such a thing as biology.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:44 am
FranticFrummie wrote:
I agree that women should at least be aware of the finances. exDH told me that "I don't need to worry about things." Little did I realize at the time, he was using it as a way of controlling me. I didn't get any red flags until I said "CVS if something should happen to you, I need to know how to manage the bills." He got really upset and changed the subject.

When he went out of town for business, I went through the filing cabinets, and couldn't find a single scrap of paper about our finances. No bank statements, not even a water bill. It was eerie. I know he doesn't do bills online, because he doesn't trust computers. He took everything with him every time he left the house!

Now, I am atrocious at math, and do struggle with organization and paying things on time. That is mostly because I simply don't have enough money to cover everything each month, so some things need to be put off or juggled. I'm working on getting help to keep track of things and stay on top of them.

I don't ever want to be dependent on a man again, when it comes to day to day practical things. Life skills are not gendered. Everyone should know how to take care of themselves.


Re: my bolded bit in the second paragraph - that is the most eerie thing I have read on here. Every time he left the house he took all those papers! 😱 You are definitely better off without him. And yes, your bolded - life skills are not gendered.
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amother
Azure


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:45 am
[quote="smileforamile"]groisamomma and I will be quick to chime in here, since we are math teachers.

The math skills being mentioned on this thread are taught in 6th-7th grade for the most part. I always say that to be an adult, you realistically don't need more than a middle school education in math. None of the stuff you're taught in high school is particularly important for the general public (although understanding how studies work and the nuances of statistics should be taught more explicitly, IMO).

For the poster who said you need to know all those things to invest money properly -- a lot of that is financial literacy and not general math skills. You need to take classes to really understand what goes on with investing. You also, dare I say, need to have mazel. A lot of people who are really good at math make bad investments. I have a bachelor's degree in math and took lots of advanced statistics classes, but I still don't consider myself knowledgeable when it comes to investing. When DH finishes his software engineering degree and starts making money BE'H, we will need to look into investing together and learn more about it. I took advanced math classes, but not advanced finance classes.

Ultimately, I don't know if being good at math is necessary to manage finances. I think that good organizational skills and decent logical reasoning skills should be enough. Logical reasoning doesn't need to be completely tied to math, though people who are good at math tend to be better with logical reasoning.[/quote]

I would say in my community that men have been taught logic and lack math skills. They often do well in business. They tend to invest in real estate.
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amother
Lilac


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:46 am
amother [ Azure ] wrote:
It starts much earlier than elementary school. I have seen it on young children before school. There is something that attracts girls to pink and boys to blue. Baby girls are attached to faces and baby boys to wheels. There is such a thing as biology.


My favorite color is blue and I like the wheels on my blue car more than I like pink and faces. And I am biologically a girl.

Is your post real? Please tell me you forgot the sarcasm emoji?
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:48 am
I am really good at math. But I honestly fail to see how basic finances require someone to be good at math.

You pretty much need to know addition and subtraction. How much you make versus how much you spend.

The only time one needs to know more is when choosing terms for a loan or mortgage, and when deciding how to invest (if you are lucky enough to have money to invest). These are usually one time decisions, and you can ask someone to advise you.
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:48 am
amother [ Azure ] wrote:
It starts much earlier than elementary school. I have seen it on young children before school. There is something that attracts girls to pink and boys to blue. Baby girls are attached to faces and baby boys to wheels. There is such a thing as biology.

OH PUH-LEASE!!!!!! Banging head
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amother
Jade


 

Post Tue, Jun 18 2019, 6:50 am
amother [ Azure ] wrote:
I would say in my community that men have been taught logic and lack math skills. They often do well in business. They tend to invest in real estate.


That was my point -- that someone does not need to be good at math to have strong logical reasoning skills, and people can be good with finances if they have the logical reasoning skills, even without the math. I was just saying that people who are good at math do tend to also have good logical reasoning skills.


Last edited by amother on Fri, Jul 05 2019, 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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