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This explains my request for safety studies done in the US
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amother




Smokey
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 2:49 pm
peony wrote:
Wow! I’m new to imamother. I must say that seeing women who I’m sure are busy enough do such serious research really inspires me. I used to vaccinate fully but after experiencing a worrisome episode I took a back seat. I’m kind of waiting for Hashem to guide me to our next step. I wish more reputable and accurate safety studies would exist. I wish parents can unite with a common goal of just wanting to do the best for our children. I wish people would have the ability to place their defenses aside for a bit just to honestly hear what is going on here and over there... may Hashem protect us all and may the power of love overcome the love of power! Hashem is in charge of everything.. everyone tries to do what is best for their child. It is natural instinct for parents to do so.... nobody should be blamed or harassed. Do what is best for you and your family and thank Hashem if he send you a clear direction. Maybe when we see each other’s as humans we would appreciate different opinions without giving the person a label. Every human being wants to be understood and validated for their unique path. What is true for me isn’t true for you. May we see the truth shine brightly and may we have the capacity to realize that in every argument there is a deeper truth that holds true for all in this case it’s protection for our kids and ourselves and nobody should be bashed or blamed for the way they choose to go about it. If someone is ignorant in your opinion . Be happy for them. Hashem didn’t challenge them or open their eyes they obviously don’t need to or can’t to better.

I can see that you're new cuz you're saying that u currently don't vax under your screen name. Hatzlacha with the heat
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amother




Smokey
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 2:52 pm
southernbubby wrote:
You have a point but when the measles outbreak resulted in a number of patients in the ICU, the staunch anti-vaxers refused to budge. Maybe the government should mandate vaccines for highly contagious diseases and if everyone cooperates, they won't mandate the other ones. It would basically mean monovalent vaccines.

Of course employers and private schools could set whatever standard that they choose.

Na I am glad that the govt took it to a radical extreme with no logical basis. This way it's a lot easier to fight it in court.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 3:06 pm
southernbubby wrote:
You have a point but when the measles outbreak resulted in a number of patients in the ICU, the staunch anti-vaxers refused to budge. Maybe the government should mandate vaccines for highly contagious diseases and if everyone cooperates, they won't mandate the other ones. It would basically mean monovalent vaccines.

Of course employers and private schools could set whatever standard that they choose.

I would feel more comfortable with that.

Measles vaccine required due to outbreaks in other countries, other vaccines optional, but if polio for example becomes a worldwide threat again, have it mandated in the US as well.

When a vaccine for chicken pox becomes a legal requirement, it is certainly more political than health-based.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 3:48 pm
peony wrote:
Wow! I’m new to imamother. I must say that seeing women who I’m sure are busy enough do such serious research really inspires me. I used to vaccinate fully but after experiencing a worrisome episode I took a back seat. I’m kind of waiting for Hashem to guide me to our next step. I wish more reputable and accurate safety studies would exist. I wish parents can unite with a common goal of just wanting to do the best for our children. I wish people would have the ability to place their defenses aside for a bit just to honestly hear what is going on here and over there... may Hashem protect us all and may the power of love overcome the love of power! Hashem is in charge of everything.. everyone tries to do what is best for their child. It is natural instinct for parents to do so.... nobody should be blamed or harassed. Do what is best for you and your family and thank Hashem if he send you a clear direction. Maybe when we see each other’s as humans we would appreciate different opinions without giving the person a label. Every human being wants to be understood and validated for their unique path. What is true for me isn’t true for you. May we see the truth shine brightly and may we have the capacity to realize that in every argument there is a deeper truth that holds true for all in this case it’s protection for our kids and ourselves and nobody should be bashed or blamed for the way they choose to go about it. If someone is ignorant in your opinion . Be happy for them. Hashem didn’t challenge them or open their eyes they obviously don’t need to or can’t to better.


"Live and let live" would only work if people with measles were careful not to spread it but sometimes it is not possible because people don't always become symptomatic at home. Because it's considered an eradicated disease, the public has a right to expect protection from it. If offered the choice between protecting the rights of the anti-vaxers and their own rights to the health of their children, what is in their best interest?
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amother




Smokey
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 4:20 pm
southernbubby wrote:
"Live and let live" would only work if people with measles were careful not to spread it but sometimes it is not possible because people don't always become symptomatic at home. Because it's considered an eradicated disease, the public has a right to expect protection from it. If offered the choice between protecting the rights of the anti-vaxers and their own rights to the health of their children, what is in their best interest?

Well said. If given the choice between protecting my own children and the rights of the pro vaxxers what is in my best interests ?
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amother




Smokey
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 4:22 pm
Saw this on FB
I will not set my child on fire to keep someone else warm. My child is not a human shield
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gamanit




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 5:08 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Saw this on FB
I will not set my child on fire to keep someone else warm. My child is not a human shield


So if there's a fire will you douse your house to keep if from spreading or will you say my house my choice?
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amother




Green
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 5:28 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Well said. If given the choice between protecting my own children and the rights of the pro vaxxers what is in my best interests ?


what are you protecting your children from?
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 5:29 pm
As per the study you cited, she is protecting her children from an increased risk of allergies, learning disabilities, ADHD and autism.

(Remember that if those reactions showed up on such a small study, they must be vastly more common than measles fatalities.)
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 6:30 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Well said. If given the choice between protecting my own children and the rights of the pro vaxxers what is in my best interests ?


So each side will look out for their own interests but right now, there isn't much sympathy or agreement with the anti-vaxers from the NY State legislature.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 6:56 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Saw this on FB
I will not set my child on fire to keep someone else warm. My child is not a human shield


We feel that same fear about letting your possibly infectious child near our babies. Our babies are not human shields and we are safer when you not near us.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 7:58 pm
A healthy unvaccinated child is not a danger to anyone.

A vaccinated OR unvaccinated child with measles, mumps, polio, RSV, pertussis, fifth disease, flu, etc. is a danger.

I don't know exactly what the risk tradeoff is, but if it is a 5x greater chance of developing autism (with its attendant shorter lifespan) or ADHD, 3x greater chance of having allergies, and unknown longer term effects, vs a 1/10,000 chance of contracting a serious case of measles, it's not so straightforward anymore.

ETA: I would still understand why the government would mandate certain vaccines. But mandating the whole package is irresponsible when this is the result of a small study, and the true picture may be worse.
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peony




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:06 pm
Both have truth to it. It ain’t a perfect world with perfect solutions.... doing what is best for you doesn’t mean there aren’t risks. It’s a matter of weighing both sides of the coin and doing your very best to be responsible according to your specific situation. There is no pain without gain and no gain without pain! For generations people argue over hot button subjects and everyone is holding a piece of the truth. Mine may not be yours and yours isn’t mine and that is okay. Getting all riled up and angry is a waste of your much needed energy to think and act rationally for yourself. We fear the worst. But if we are truly doing our part it’s a true pity to harp on what others are doing you can’t change them or control them so why waste your breath on them. Problem starts when people bash others and then the heat comes right back to the basher nobody wants to stay on the bottom. fighting equals failing. You hear a new piece of info And it unsettles you. Take a deep breath and recognize that it probably caused you fear and therefore you lose your ability to think for yourself. Don’t fear information it won’t make it go away take it for what it is and use your best judgement without getting emotionally entangled to see things for what they are! May Hashem protect us all.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:18 pm
southernbubby wrote:
You have a point but when the measles outbreak resulted in a number of patients in the ICU, the staunch anti-vaxers refused to budge. Maybe the government should mandate vaccines for highly contagious diseases and if everyone cooperates, they won't mandate the other ones. It would basically mean monovalent vaccines.

Of course employers and private schools could set whatever standard that they choose.

While I still disagree with you about mandating something with inadequate safety studies within the context of the schedule, at least your suggestion is more reasonable. The fact that vaccines for STD's are mandated along with vaccines for a highly contagious measles when they weren't sufficiently tested in conjunction with each other raises serious questions regarding government overreach and induces mistrust in the entire schedule. I want studies proving their safety to be done here in the US BEFORE they become law.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:20 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
I would feel more comfortable with that.

Measles vaccine required due to outbreaks in other countries, other vaccines optional, but if polio for example becomes a worldwide threat again, have it mandated in the US as well.

When a vaccine for chicken pox becomes a legal requirement, it is certainly more political than health-based.

I responded before reading your reply. Ha. Nice to meet another sensible vaccine-questioner Hi
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:22 pm
amother [ Smokey ] wrote:
Saw this on FB
I will not set my child on fire to keep someone else warm. My child is not a human shield

Please refrain from posting such memes on this thread. There are many vaccine threads with people throwing collections of words at each other. I would like to discuss this intellectually with facts and studies. Thank you.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:23 pm
amother [ Magenta ] wrote:
A healthy unvaccinated child is not a danger to anyone.

A vaccinated OR unvaccinated child with measles, mumps, polio, RSV, pertussis, fifth disease, flu, etc. is a danger.

I don't know exactly what the risk tradeoff is, but if it is a 5x greater chance of developing autism (with its attendant shorter lifespan) or ADHD, 3x greater chance of having allergies, and unknown longer term effects, vs a 1/10,000 chance of contracting a serious case of measles, it's not so straightforward anymore.

ETA: I would still understand why the government would mandate certain vaccines. But mandating the whole package is irresponsible when this is the result of a small study, and the true picture may be worse.


Just for the record, at one point the hospitalization rate for measles was 22% and the rate of the always fatal SSPE is 1 in 660 so it is not one in 10,000 who have a serious case.

And since some vaccinated children catch measles but 90% of all non-immune kids catch measles if exposed, it makes sense to keep the non vaccinated home from camp.

I agree that the government should focus on vaccines for highly contagious diseases and not mandate the other ones.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:28 pm
peony wrote:
Both have truth to it. It ain’t a perfect world with perfect solutions.... doing what is best for you doesn’t mean there aren’t risks. It’s a matter of weighing both sides of the coin and doing your very best to be responsible according to your specific situation. There is no pain without gain and no gain without pain! For generations people argue over hot button subjects and everyone is holding a piece of the truth. Mine may not be yours and yours isn’t mine and that is okay. Getting all riled up and angry is a waste of your much needed energy to think and act rationally for yourself. We fear the worst. But if we are truly doing our part it’s a true pity to harp on what others are doing you can’t change them or control them so why waste your breath on them. Problem starts when people bash others and then the heat comes right back to the basher nobody wants to stay on the bottom. fighting equals failing. You hear a new piece of info And it unsettles you. Take a deep breath and recognize that it probably caused you fear and therefore you lose your ability to think for yourself. Don’t fear information it won’t make it go away take it for what it is and use your best judgement without getting emotionally entangled to see things for what they are! May Hashem protect us all.


I agree that I engage in vitriol because I hate quackery but both sides are basically saying that they care only for their own kids. I don't care if NY State won't let your kids come to camp with my grandchildren just as you don't care if your child is incubating measles when he boards the bus.
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amother




Magenta
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:41 pm
Southernbubby, hospitalization is no proof of measles severity.

The CDC states that the mortality rates in 1960, when wild measles was rampant, were 1/10,000. SSPE has always been very rare, and is also a rare side effect of the MMR itself.

We still don't know the long-term risks of vaccination. We do know that things like asbestos exposure have a 10-50 year latent period. Displaying some caution is perfectly reasonable, although as I said before, I would understand a government-mandated measles vaccination.
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amother




OP
 

Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 8:42 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Just for the record, at one point the hospitalization rate for measles was 22% and the rate of the always fatal SSPE is 1 in 660 so it is not one in 10,000 who have a serious case.

And since some vaccinated children catch measles but 90% of all non-immune kids catch measles if exposed, it makes sense to keep the non vaccinated home from camp.

I agree that the government should focus on vaccines for highly contagious diseases and not mandate the other ones.

Where did you find the 1/660 for SSPE?

The WHO states:
Quote:
Evidence was provided that the true incidence of SSPE is approximately 4–11 cases per 100 000 cases of measles, although with measles infection acquired very early in life the risk may be higher (18 per 100 000 cases). A risk as high as 27.9 SSPE cases per 100 000 cases of measles has been cited.
https://www.who.int/vaccine_sa.....6/en/
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