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Do You NOT Wonder How Bnei Yisrael Survived 40 Years?
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imasoftov




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 11:57 am
Also, let's skip the generation of the Midbar. When did natural law start to affect us? Surely at some time in history before the vaccine was invented measles became as we know it today. So how did we survive during that interval (and the rest of humanity prior to that, who presumably were not subject to divine protection)? Some people died, some recovered completely, some survived but suffered long-term effects.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 4:03 pm
imasoftov wrote:
This isn't taking any side, but I wonder if anyone ever asked, why didn't, just like the people who asked Moshe if they could bring the Pesach later because they were temaim at the regular time, didn't anyone ask him, could we have an eight-day warning before moving so we can decide whether to circumcise our sons before or after the move? Maybe add a few days for healing before moving. Or if that takes too much of the al pi Hashem aspect out of it, maybe once every year or few an announcement that we'll be here for a while so everyone should circumcise the boys from the last year or however many. There aren't that many stops mentioned in Maasei compared to 40 years so they did at times have long periods without moving.


I've learned that the moves might have seemed arbitrary but completely weren't. And that they weren't scheduled was to instill in us the feeling that wherever and whenever we are, we maximize the opportunities to serve Hashem and grow. We don't say, well, here the heat is so hot, when we move to the oasis next week then we can really shteig, let's cut ourselves slack now.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 4:06 pm
imasoftov wrote:
Also, let's skip the generation of the Midbar. When did natural law start to affect us? Surely at some time in history before the vaccine was invented measles became as we know it today. So how did we survive during that interval (and the rest of humanity prior to that, who presumably were not subject to divine protection)? Some people died, some recovered completely, some survived but suffered long-term effects.


That's this week's parasha! According to some opinions the root cause of the sin of the meraglim was that they couldn't comprehend how we would function in the natural world, where we would have to engage in agriculture, etc. vs. the miracle of the dor de'ah of the midbar.

That said, even though we lived in a more natural world once we entered EY, it's not nature as we know it now. There was serious obvious cause and effect as per the second parasha of Shema. (I don't know what the ramifications for illness were.)
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 4:15 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I've learned that the moves might have seemed arbitrary but completely weren't. And that they weren't scheduled was to instill in us the feeling that wherever and whenever we are, we maximize the opportunities to serve Hashem and grow. We don't say, well, here the heat is so hot, when we move to the oasis next week then we can really shteig, let's cut ourselves slack now.


Right. I think I once learned -- I have to look this up; was it in P'shat? A Midrash? A peirush? -- that every day except for Shabbat they had to disassemble everything because they never knew when they'd have to move next. Part of the experience was that there was no permanence. They were truly wanderers. They were totally dependent on the will of Hashem. It taught bitachon in Hashem, but reading through Shemot and Bemidbar, you can also understand the undertone of insecurity that was rampant among B'nei Yisrael.

And am I misremembering, or did they stay in Kadesh-Barnea a really long time? I mean, I know the Chumash says straight out that they stayed there a long time (many days), but I think I remember learning that there was one opinion that it was 19 years. But every day, as far as they knew, might have been their last one there.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 4:32 pm
And quickly looking at this week's parasha, it's explicit that the wandering was a consequence of B'nei Yisrael not trusting Hashem (to take care of them once they came into the land of Israel). That is, it seems clear that it's not just that the *punishment* was not getting out of the wilderness before the generation died out; it's that the experience was meant to instill in them the trust that they hadn't yet shown. But also, I've heard it said that it was incredibly difficult to go from total Neis all the way to Teva within such a short period. There needed to be a transition of generations.

Also, speaking of plagues: There's another one in this week's parasha: the spies who spoke badly about the land were killed suddenly in a plague, unlike the rest of the generation, which was allowed to die out.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 4:40 pm
Here's a link I found that confirms that it was 19 years at Kadesh Barnea, according to R. Yechiel Heilprin's Seider Hadoros (1769). (Disclaimer. This is just one opinion. Seider Hadoros works from a very specific set of assumptions which not all will agree with) It is many years since I learned it, but I had a great teacher in middle school for Sefer Bemidbar and Sefer Devarim, so I still remember stuff.

timeline for year 2448 - Parsha Pages
www.parshapages.com/.../Bemidb.....%2...

ETA: This link is not working. But if you Google "timeline for year 2448 - parsha pages" you should get the link to a Word doc that quotes Seider Hadoros.
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Emotional




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 5:35 pm
bluebaker wrote:
my AUTONOMIC NERVOUS SYSTEM has been taken over by my SYMPATHETIC NERVOUS SYSTEM - the SNS is the reactive state. This is when you no longer feel connected to your body because it's in the reactive state.

I don't understand what this means in practical terms. Can you explain this please?
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miami85




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 6:29 pm
I have not followed through with the whole thread. I will just add my 2 cents, my parents "saved" my tonsils when I was a young child. They have been large my whole life and bother me regularly now. I get tonsillitis frequently which is not treatable with antibiotics, and tonsil stones which are literally a pain to get out and irritate my throat incessantly (I've learned to remove them myself, but its annoying). I've been told that I "could" get them out, but its elective surgery which take 2-weeks to recover from. I'm a parent of young children, when am I going to have "2 weeks" to take off to recover?? I often wonder why I just didn't get them out as a kid. I have one child whose tonsils I have removed for probably the same reason mine were considered for removal, the medication "worked" on me, it didn't for him. He does not get sick more often than my other kids (have tonsils). It was a rough few days when he had them out, but he was "mostly better" after a few days and back to normal before 2 weeks. (He had them out on a Wednesday, and was acting back to normal by Sunday) and now doesn't remember it. As Jews we do not believe that the body is "born perfect"--hence bris milah. We believe that we are put on this world to bring perfection to our soul through our body, and disease and infection can help purify our soul.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 6:44 pm
miami85 wrote:
I have not followed through with the whole thread. I will just add my 2 cents, my parents "saved" my tonsils when I was a young child. They have been large my whole life and bother me regularly now. I get tonsillitis frequently which is not treatable with antibiotics, and tonsil stones which are literally a pain to get out and irritate my throat incessantly (I've learned to remove them myself, but its annoying). I've been told that I "could" get them out, but its elective surgery which take 2-weeks to recover from. I'm a parent of young children, when am I going to have "2 weeks" to take off to recover?? I often wonder why I just didn't get them out as a kid. I have one child whose tonsils I have removed for probably the same reason mine were considered for removal, the medication "worked" on me, it didn't for him. He does not get sick more often than my other kids (have tonsils). It was a rough few days when he had them out, but he was "mostly better" after a few days and back to normal before 2 weeks. (He had them out on a Wednesday, and was acting back to normal by Sunday) and now doesn't remember it. As Jews we do not believe that the body is "born perfect"--hence bris milah. We believe that we are put on this world to bring perfection to our soul through our body, and disease and infection can help purify our soul.


I get what you're saying about the surgery. I tried to "save" myself from surgery a couple of times, and then I wound up having to have surgery. And then I thought, How stupid was that! I suffered for months (case #1) or years (case #2), and then wound up having to have surgery anyway. Then again, one never knows, and it kind of made sense for parents to question and resist tonsillectomies after tonsillectomies were so overperformed a couple of generations ago. BTW, mostly tonsils shrink with age. So I was told during a pre-op check-up last year. So maybe your tonsils will shrink soon.

But I don't agree that disease and infection can help purify our soul. That's a distinctly anti-vax attitude. I want to avoid disease and infection as much as possible, which is why I vax, wash my hands often, etc. I don't think we get brownie points for getting sick.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 7:21 pm
JoyInTheMorning wrote:


But I don't agree that disease and infection can help purify our soul. That's a distinctly anti-vax attitude. I want to avoid disease and infection as much as possible, which is why I vax, wash my hands often, etc. I don't think we get brownie points for getting sick.


I don't think that there's any question that yesurim are mechaprim, on whatever level.
We don't look for them, though, and we even daven to be spared them. But when they come, we hope that all the talk we've talked through the years help us walk the walk.
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miami85




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 10:00 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I don't think that there's any question that yesurim are mechaprim, on whatever level.
We don't look for them, though, and we even daven to be spared them. But when they come, we hope that all the talk we've talked through the years help us walk the walk.


I meant this aspect more than the previous poster. That we are supposed to do our hishtadlus to prevent disease but "things will happen" b/c Hashem still runs the world. There used to be "Black Plague" but that was resolved, then there was "typhoid", and they resolved that, how about "cholera" and "dysentery"? Not issues these days. Ok so Hashem has thrown new diseases at us to challenge doctors to make sure they know that they aren't G-d.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Sun, Jun 23 2019, 10:15 pm
PinkFridge wrote:
I don't think that there's any question that yesurim are mechaprim, on whatever level.
We don't look for them, though, and we even daven to be spared them. But when they come, we hope that all the talk we've talked through the years help us walk the walk.


I know that there are many ma'amarim about yesurim bringing us closer to olam haba, being mechaprim, etc. But I feel most comfortable reading that in the possible modality. One's yesurim might bring kapparah, might bring us closer to olam haba, etc. I don't feel comfortable absolutely accepting that it's always the case. The prime counterexample is Iyov. When Hashem appears at the end of the narrative, He makes it very clear that there was neither cause nor teleological reason (e.g., kapparah) for the yesurim that Iyov suffered. So I don't know that the issue is that clear.

Obviously, when one suffers yesurim, whether illness or otherwise, one hopes to handle it in a way that makes one a better person. But I don't think that is the same as saying that yesurim are mechaprim.
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Yoyo613




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jun 24 2019, 11:56 pm
For some it's to be mechaper and some to upgrade the person. Nisyonos.
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imasoftov




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:13 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I've learned that the moves might have seemed arbitrary but completely weren't. And that they weren't scheduled was to instill in us the feeling that wherever and whenever we are, we maximize the opportunities to serve Hashem and grow. We don't say, well, here the heat is so hot, when we move to the oasis next week then we can really shteig, let's cut ourselves slack now.

There's also a good reason not to bring the Korban Pesach if you're tameh, still those that missed bringing the Korban Pesach because of that asked if they could be accommodated in some way.

I didn't ask why were moves unpredictable, I asked why didn't anyone ask if there was some way they could circumcise their children. And since having uncircumcised children prevented one from bringing the Korban Pesach, why didn't the precedent of the first question (of the people who were tameh on Pesach) inspire others to ask about circumcision?

It's OK if you don't know the answer, you do not have to give me more vorts that answer different questions than I ask. I can live with questions.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jun 25 2019, 7:39 am
imasoftov wrote:


It's OK if you don't know the answer, you do not have to give me more vorts that answer different questions than I ask. I can live with questions.


When one gets enough good answers to questions, one can live with the occasional unanswered question. (I'm just making a general statement, not referring to my answering questions on this thead.)
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