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A way to solve the tuition crisis
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 6:48 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
I actually believe that it's both contributing to the mess we are in today. Many people are not doing the proper hishtadlus, AND there is something very wrong with the lifestyle that we have set up for ourselves. We have set up a system where people are encouraged to marry early without a financial foundation, have many kids, pay high tuition costs, plus be able to fund all the other Jewish obligations. It's unsustainable al pi derech hateva, whichever way you twist it.

And that's precisely why I don't believe a communal fund will ever work. Why continue finding ways to fund something completely unsustainable? Rework the system, instead of working the backs of the overstressed people.


I agree that the communal fund is not a realistic solution. I was really just commenting on the idea that if people would make changes to their lifestyle we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.
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amother
Maroon


 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 6:52 pm
amother [ Floralwhite ] wrote:
I agree that the communal fund is not a realistic solution. I was really just commenting on the idea that if people would make changes to their lifestyle we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.


I do believe if that young ones today make changes to their lifestyles, the mess would be reduced. But I stress reduced, and not eliminated. Because that alone is not enough due to the unsustainable lifestyle that we've set up. Change needs to come from both ends.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 9:30 pm
http://lubavitch.com/news/arti......html

I think in perhaps smaller communities where there are community schools and non of the nonsense of ppl unwilling to have their children educated with other children from families who may be different from them...this could work - the community supports the school as an investment in the future of our youth and the tuition is covered by the community.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 9:58 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
http://lubavitch.com/news/article/2083591/The-Future-Is-Here-Tuition-Free-Jewish-Day-School-in-Myrtle-Beach.html

I think in perhaps smaller communities where there are community schools and non of the nonsense of ppl unwilling to have their children educated with other children from families who may be different from them...this could work - the community supports the school as an investment in the future of our youth and the tuition is covered by the community.


This is one reason that fundraising is challenging; most of us don't want to donate to a school that won't accept our kids. A school like this one appeals to non-frum donors.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 10:53 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
The argument goes only so far only when you twist the words around.

Financial responsiblity & "Living within your means" means that when you start out married life and you know that you will need to account for tuition costs very shortly, you factor that into your financial decisions. That can either mean moving to an affordable community, having both spouses work and so on. You don't push it down the road and ignore it until it hits you in the face.

Our communities mostly ignore the concepts of financial responsibility & financial independence. If we focus on that from the get-go, when the kids are young, then I doubt we'd have many of the issues we have today.

If your words are true - that only the small number of people, the rich, can afford to send to jewish schools, then the problem is much bigger than any communal fund can override.


I'm not sure where you're getting the info. that people are not being financially responsible, and not factoring in tuition as a future expense. Everyone I know did this/does this.

It's not so much that we're not planning, it's more that's it's unsustainable. If you take the average frum family - six to eight kids - and you add up the tuitions for kindergarten through seminary/beis medrash, the amount is astronomical. There is no actual way to really plan for this.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 10:59 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
Because I hail from a community who marries off kids without any financial responsibility, parnossoh skills and education at all! They get married and "will figure it out later". Being that the Torah spells out just the opposite, it's pretty up in your face that this is not the hishtadlus that we are expected to do.

Of course there will always be people who struggle even with the proper hishtadlus, but the number of them would be far less than what it is today.


I don't know which community you are from, but if you are Chassidish - the problem is not that they marry off their children without financial responsibility or parnasah (maybe the education part) but that they get married at 18, 19 or 20. NO-ONE in the USA has a real profession at that age.

I did the numbers on a different thread. With programs, a family with six children and an annual income of $40,000 is making the equivalent of $120 to $130K. It's very hard to make a lot more than that, even with a professional degree, so I'm not sure if they can be categorized as not doing hishtadlus.
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Mommyg8




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:08 pm
amother [ Maroon ] wrote:
Yes, there is a beautiful & stunning level of tzedakah and chessed focused around weddings, but sadly, there is a stunning level of people in need for that tzedakah and chesed.

We have so many organizations helping people out of their troubles, I wish we'd have more organizations helping people avoid falling into the troubles in the first place.


I agree with the problem, but I don't think the solution is as simplistic as you're making it out to be. Where I live, men are generally educated, and those that go to work do make decently, but we had a recent thread where amothers were saying that they have an annual income of $200,000 and they are just barely squeaking by.

It's not hard to understand why. Frum people need kosher food, frum infastructure, and most of all, yeshivos and girls schools. For the average Chassidish/yeshivish family of 8-10 children, that is a LOT of money, especially when you add in all the "mandatory" expenses such as camp, seminary, spending money, etc. And this is not even touching the issue of support for married couples and/or paying for children's college...

The costs are simply astronomical. I don't see a way for this to actually work without real nisim (or a lot of tzedakah).
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Jun 30 2019, 11:43 pm
Has anyone considered WHY tuitions are so high? I keep hearing of schools building pools, huge auditoriums and having all sorts of extracurricular activities. I live overseas, so I don't see it from up close, and maybe these things are, or at least are intended to be, moneymakers, but they do cost money. Is it possible for the schools to operate on a smaller budget?
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amother
Pink


 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:24 am
yerushamama wrote:
Has anyone considered WHY tuitions are so high? I keep hearing of schools building pools, huge auditoriums and having all sorts of extracurricular activities. I live overseas, so I don't see it from up close, and maybe these things are, or at least are intended to be, moneymakers, but they do cost money. Is it possible for the schools to operate on a smaller budget?


The schools with fancy grounds and equipment and activities are generally located in affluent neighborhoods where the parents can pay high tuitions and are willing to put out money for these extras.

The further you move to the right, the more you have families marrying young, not getting higher education, and having many children. Given that yeshiva education is a stretch for families with 5 kids earning $250k, how is it even possible for a family with 8 kids and half that income? In some ways, the spending on strollers and jewelry is like the poor who buy a large screen TV despite being on welfare - once you've given up on ever being able to make ends meet, you just buy the stuff you want.

There's already a community in the world with a communal fund that pays for Jewish education. It's Israel, where tax money is collected and then spent on schools. Free or low cost Jewish education exists, for those willing to take advantage of it.
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amother
Amber


 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:30 am
yerushamama wrote:
Has anyone considered WHY tuitions are so high? I keep hearing of schools building pools, huge auditoriums and having all sorts of extracurricular activities. I live overseas, so I don't see it from up close, and maybe these things are, or at least are intended to be, moneymakers, but they do cost money. Is it possible for the schools to operate on a smaller budget?


Teachers want a living wage.
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amother
Pumpkin


 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:33 am
I don't know of many frum schools with pools.
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notshanarishona




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:41 am
For some reason , many places have an easier time getting funding for a building fund than for day to say maintenance and tuition. There is more prestige in donating a playground than paying teachers.
That being said , most frum schools do not have gorgeous up to date buildings and a pool in a school is a rare occurrence.
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mig100




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 2:15 am
amother [ Pumpkin ] wrote:
I don't know of many frum schools with pools.


Neither do I
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amother
Black


 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 3:44 am
The only way to make schools cheaper is to reduce the quality of the education and have absolutely no extras. ..

And I present to you, chassidish schools which are affordable. My chassidish friends are paying 1-5k a year, depending on the school.
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yerushamama




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 4:22 am
I guess I was misinformed about the pools - I was told that one school where I used to live has a pool, and at least one other is thinking about it (?maybe because of camp - who knows).

I am sure that it is possible to have quality education with lower expenses. I know that there were a lot of things that were "givens" when I was in school in terms of extracurricular activities, parties for every occasion, trips, special programs, etc that are paid for separately in Israel. Yes, it is annoying to have to constantly come up with another few shekels for each thing, but it keeps these "extras" more in check.
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amother
Lavender


 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:23 am
yerushamama wrote:
I guess I was misinformed about the pools - I was told that one school where I used to live has a pool, and at least one other is thinking about it (?maybe because of camp - who knows).

I am sure that it is possible to have quality education with lower expenses. I know that there were a lot of things that were "givens" when I was in school in terms of extracurricular activities, parties for every occasion, trips, special programs, etc that are paid for separately in Israel. Yes, it is annoying to have to constantly come up with another few shekels for each thing, but it keeps these "extras" more in check.


Bais Yaakov Toronto has a pool. There's a boys yeshiva being built here now with a pool too.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 8:22 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
The only way to make schools cheaper is to reduce the quality of the education and have absolutely no extras. ..

And I present to you, chassidish schools which are affordable. My chassidish friends are paying 1-5k a year, depending on the school.


A man from KJ explained that although due to the population size, keneinahora, they have 5 buildings for maidalach, it's all under one administration. This saves on salaries. It's also possible that the price of living in a place like KJ is more controlled because of multi family housing, shared common areas such as playgrounds, and it seems to have a central shul which would mean not supporting numerous smaller shuls. It may be that tzedukah is centralized rather than dozens of singles causes.
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amother
Green


 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 8:34 am
southernbubby wrote:
A man from KJ explained that although due to the population size, keneinahora, they have 5 buildings for maidalach, it's all under one administration. This saves on salaries. It's also possible that the price of living in a place like KJ is more controlled because of multi family housing, shared common areas such as playgrounds, and it seems to have a central shul which would mean not supporting numerous smaller shuls. It may be that tzedukah is centralized rather than dozens of singles causes.


They have smaller shuls in KJ. They are also more competitive with clothes, etc. No one gets married without a fully furnished apartment and supplied a list of clothes and linens. Let's not forget the chandelier.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 8:41 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
The only way to make schools cheaper is to reduce the quality of the education and have absolutely no extras. ..

And I present to you, chassidish schools which are affordable. My chassidish friends are paying 1-5k a year, depending on the school.


I disagree. I think there are lots of extras that don't contribute to the quality of the education. I truly don't believe that my kids have a better education than I did because they have a smart board in each classroom, for example. And while my preschool kids are very excited with the projects they come home with, I'm sure that they would not be less excited with fewer projects that don't use as many materials, and simpler ones at that. Whatever, those are just a couple of random examples. I think the schools feel pressured to measure up which raises the costs even while the educational standards are not affected.

Chassidish schools are subsidized heavily by the mosad, they're in a completely different category.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Jul 01 2019, 8:56 am
amother [ Green ] wrote:
They have smaller shuls in KJ. They are also more competitive with clothes, etc. No one gets married without a fully furnished apartment and supplied a list of clothes and linens. Let's not forget the chandelier.


This guy makes his living driving people to airports and said that he doesn't buy matching clothes for his 12, keneinahora, kids. Where does all this wealth come from?
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