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S/O: girls "rarely think at all"
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amother




Mint


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:02 pm
sequoia wrote:
That’s really sad.

However, that’s very culture-specific. In co-ed MO schools boys and girls learn together, including gemara.

So I don’t think you can say “girls don’t think” like it’s some biological reality.


It's also very much not the case across the board in all RW schools.
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ShishKabob




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:02 pm
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
I went to bais kaila HS in lkwd. (Hi yall Wave )
And we loveddd to tell the teachers that they dont let us ask questions. Well truth is, we were able to ask wtvr we wanted to. It's just typical HS jargon "we cant ask any questions blah blah " kinda a way to get class off subject even if we didnt have questions. Girls with lots of questions usually arent looking for answers or they just want to start up and they will never be satisfied. If you had a real question on faith and you were actually in search of an answer, there were many hanhala members who were qualified to provide one.

This
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keym




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:05 pm
smileforamile wrote:
I think that we're discussing two different types of thinking.

One of them is thinking in learning. RW BY girls can do a lot of that. We learned to dissect Rashi's questions and answers and why he chose each word.

The other is thinking about life and deeper questions in Yiddishkeit. Those were the questions that were shot down. If a teacher shot you down because you asked how Rashi answered the question, that probably won't have too much of an impact on your life. But if a teacher kicks you out when you ask why a woman is expected to take on the curses of both Adam and Chava, that might stick with you a lot more -- especially since it's a legitimate and difficult question to tackle and has a big impact on your life.

The one thing I'll say is that most of these questions are inappropriate for the middle of class. I can understand why they come off as chutzpadik to a certain extent. A lot of them are much better asked and answered in a one-on-one setting -- with the right person. Hopefully each school has at least one or two people who can handle tough questions.

(BYA High School has one or two, but not more.)


I disagree that they are not connected.
A 4th or 5th grader who asks why Rashi answers that why, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't match up. If she gets shot down several times, it can set her up for life as a person who just doesn't bother asking questions or pointing out inconsistencies.
It trains her to not notice the inconsistencies. And that's my problem.
It's not necessarily about the deep or complicated questions about Kollel or G-ds existence and continued interest.
If she trains herself not to notice the "problems" so as not to make waves she sets herself up to not be able to see the larger questions.
I was the questioner. And bh I had people to ask. And I wasn't a "waste class to ask questions" questioner. But I see friends, neighbors, etc who can't think enough to ask anything because they shut the questioning part of their brain down. And that's sad. And worse, those are the mothers and teachers who get scared from questions because they don't even realize how "normal" questions are.

I know someone who freaked out when her 3 year old asked "why is the sky blue". Response: "cuz Hashem made it that way". "But why Mommy". Friend freaked out. Some thing's wrong with my kid that he keeps thinking about this.
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:09 pm
keym wrote:
I disagree that they are not connected.
A 4th or 5th grader who asks why Rashi answers that why, it doesn't make sense, it doesn't match up. If she gets shot down several times, it can set her up for life as a person who just doesn't bother asking questions or pointing out inconsistencies.
It trains her to not notice the inconsistencies. And that's my problem.
It's not necessarily about the deep or complicated questions about Kollel or G-ds existence and continued interest.
If she trains herself not to notice the "problems" so as not to make waves she sets herself up to not be able to see the larger questions.
I was the questioner. And bh I had people to ask. And I wasn't a "waste class to ask questions" questioner. But I see friends, neighbors, etc who can't think enough to ask anything because they shut the questioning part of their brain down. And that's sad. And worse, those are the mothers and teachers who get scared from questions because they don't even realize how "normal" questions are.

I know someone who freaked out when her 3 year old asked "why is the sky blue". Response: "cuz Hashem made it that way". "But why Mommy". Friend freaked out. Some thing's wrong with my kid that he keeps thinking about this.


I hear you. I guess I always had a disdain for authority, so I never bothered asking questions. It doesn't mean I didn't notice the inconsistencies or think about them. I just knew better than to ask. I'm thinking from my own perspective, though, and I could see how someone else would just throw their hands up and lose interest in thinking.

Asking questions vs. thinking about them are two different things, though.

This is why I like being an adult; I have the skills to research pretty much anything I'm interested in or wondering about.

That story is extremely sad.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 6:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShishKabob




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:19 pm
keym wrote:
But I see friends, neighbors, etc who can't think enough to ask anything because they shut the questioning part of their brain down. And that's sad.

So so true and unfortunately sad.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:24 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I sincerely hope this thread doesn't get locked. These are softball questions and easily answered. The internet is evil because it has an endless amount of filth on it. Non Jewish books are bad because they could potentially have endless filth in them. The Christians have nothing to substantiate anything they claim. The new testament is very obviously a man written book that is littered with contradictions and errors. Ditto with the Koran.



if you think that the above responses answer the "softball" questions, we are talking about entirely different wavelengths here. None of those answers fully address any of those questions.
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marina




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:27 pm
amother [ Green ] wrote:
The OTD community does not have practical and frankly reasonable way way of answering all questions. They just gave up looking for answers. It's easier to say, it's all a fairy tale and live life without religious limitations, then to look for real answers.


It's also easier to pretend people who choose a different life than you do are just lazy. Instead of thinking about how much they gave up and how long they've struggled before leaving.

To be clear- Many (if not most) OTD adults have spend years searching for answers and speaking to rabbis and reading books etc etc. For you to paint them as lazy is nothing but ignorant and self serving.
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amother




Pearl


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 12:51 pm
tigerwife wrote:
I can agree that girls are not taught strong enough critical thinking skills, but I do think that that is something that needs to be developed with constant reading. I remember asking students questions on a story in a lit class, but most were blind to the inferences and complained that “it doesn’t say that in the story”. Many students’ goals are to get straight As and get accepted into top high schools or colleges, and are not learning for the sake of actual education. By the way, this applies to all students, Jewish and Non-Jewish.

I disagree with the undercurrent theory here that if you do not grapple with foundational questions, then perhaps you are not as intelligent or don’t think as much as the one who does question. Faith is blind; that is literally the definition- “strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.”. Faith based on fact is just knowledge. Sometimes it takes enough intelligence to believe that there aren’t answers for everything in this world.

Tell me why innocent children, babies have to suffer. Why do pure souls go through incomprehensible pain? I’ve heard enough spiritual answers but nothing resonates with me besides the fact that we are in a limited world and can not comprehend G-d. Life isn’t that long; soon enough we will depart from this world and understand. Until then, we can only do the best we can.


Smart lady... This resonates with me do much. I'm pretty intellectual, but ultimately it's unknowable to us bc we're human & Hkbh is Divine.
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amother




Tan


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 3:30 pm
amother [ Green ] wrote:
The OTD community does not have practical and frankly reasonable way way of answering all questions. They just gave up looking for answers. It's easier to say, it's all a fairy tale and live life without religious limitations, then to look for real answers.



I think while there certainly are restrictions with religious life, it is certainly more comforting to have emunah and believe than to fall off the wagon. Many if not all of life's challenges are soothed by religion. If your poor, sick, infertile, single, or anything else, you should know that hashem loves you and this situation is the absolute best for you and your neshama. It's a special tikun, that while we don't understand why it's necessary or good, in fact it is both necessary and good. This is the frum mentality and if someone can buy into it 100%, they would be blissfully happy. This is opposed to a non believer who thinks she's suffering because she was randomly dealt a bad hand that she's stuck with. The religious way is so much more comforting. Even other religions say the same thing. I saw an instagram post of a celebrity who recently lost her pregnancy. I was wondering if she went to bais yackov. She was going on and on about how this is somehow good for her because god only does good, and we just don't understand.

So I disagree with the premise that somehow abandoning religion is easier. Maybe for a 16 year old kid who just wants to use electronics on shabbos, but for an intelligent adult to abandon the torah and the eternal reward of indescribable proportions that comes with it, just so that they don't have to deal with the rules, is a horrible trade off. The better reason for those people leaving is because they simply don't believe it's true.
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leah233




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 4:35 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I think while there certainly are restrictions with religious life, it is certainly more comforting to have emunah and believe than to fall off the wagon. Many if not all of life's challenges are soothed by religion. If your poor, sick, infertile, single, or anything else, you should know that hashem loves you and this situation is the absolute best for you and your neshama. It's a special tikun, that while we don't understand why it's necessary or good, in fact it is both necessary and good. This is the frum mentality and if someone can buy into it 100%, they would be blissfully happy. This is opposed to a non believer who thinks she's suffering because she was randomly dealt a bad hand that she's stuck with. The religious way is so much more comforting. Even other religions say the same thing. I saw an instagram post of a celebrity who recently lost her pregnancy. I was wondering if she went to bais yackov. She was going on and on about how this is somehow good for her because god only does good, and we just don't understand.


While it is true that religion provides hope, comfort, purpose and meaning that atheism cannot and does not, that cannot be the motive of why people choose to believe. Aside from the obvious, that nobody could take comfort in something that makes no sense to them, if it were the underlying motive of why people stay frum then people with very adverse and difficult lives would be less likely to abandon religion than people with simple and easy lives.

That simply isn't the case and never has been. Going all the way back thousands of years to the Soton in Sefer Iyov, the observation that people with difficult adverse lives are more likely to drop frumkeit than those with easy ones has remained a constant repeated observation and unchanged situation.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 4:52 pm
amother [ Tan ] wrote:
I sincerely hope this thread doesn't get locked. These are softball questions and easily answered. The internet is evil because it has an endless amount of filth on it. Non Jewish books are bad because they could potentially have endless filth in them. The Christians have nothing to substantiate anything they claim. The new testament is very obviously a man written book that is littered with contradictions and errors. Ditto with the Koran.


If these are softball questions why were they so discouraged?
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:05 pm
leah233 wrote:
That simply isn't the case and never has been. Going all the way back thousands of years to the Soton in Sefer Iyov, the observation that people with difficult adverse lives are more likely to drop frumkeit than those with easy ones has remained a constant repeated observation and unchanged situation.


Is that a problem with frumkeit, though? Or is it simply a litmus test?


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Tan


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:06 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
If these are softball questions why were they so discouraged?



I think you're probably younger than I am. The people I know who went otd didn't do so because they didn't understand why the internet is bad or why can't they read non jewish books. I suppose in a very young crowd these ideas you mention might be very bothersome.
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leah233




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:13 pm
smileforamile wrote:
Is that a problem with frumkeit, though? Or is it simply a litmus test?



I'm sorry but I don't understand your question. Can you explain?
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amother




Brunette


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:18 pm
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
I went to bais kaila HS in lkwd. (Hi yall Wave )
And we loveddd to tell the teachers that they dont let us ask questions. Well truth is, we were able to ask wtvr we wanted to. It's just typical HS jargon "we cant ask any questions blah blah " kinda a way to get class off subject even if we didnt have questions. Girls with lots of questions usually arent looking for answers or they just want to start up and they will never be satisfied. If you had a real question on faith and you were actually in search of an answer, there were many hanhala members who were qualified to provide one.


See, this is the attitude that most of my teachers had, and the only reason I didn't go off the derech is because of my husband. I had questions - so many questions - of things that just didn't make sense, or where one thing contradicted this other thing, or just 'why is it that..?" questions. I was told I was rebellious and "just wanted to start up". It was also seriously implied that I loved the question more than the answer.

I can't tell you how maddening it was to be dismissed. I was a girl - we didn't have access to great Torah minds. We had women teaching us. Who never learned gemara, and what they knew was from their husbands. I guarantee most of them didn't know the answers, and likely their husbands didn't either. Our principal wasn't some gadol hador, he was a man who somehow became a principal because once upon a time he must have been a good teacher. Maybe. I don't know.

I asked my father, who also dismissed me as a rebellious girl, and I should just be like my grandmother, who never questioned and only lived to feed her big household. Who else did I have to ask? Seriously, now. I'm asking. We didn't have the internet back then. No one had cell phones. Who was I going to find answers from?

About two years ago, a good couple of decades past high school, I happened to listen to a shiur that ASKED AND ANSWERED ONE OF MY MAJOR QUESTIONS. I cannot describe to you the relief I felt. First, that the question in and of itself wasn't some "I hate religion" question I thought up. It was valid. And second, that there was an answer! I still remember it!!!

It's painful and unfair to be told that your questions are only being asked because you're looking for something to be upset about. And then these same teachers will teach us that isn't Judaism amazing, we let you question the Torah! No. No, you don't.
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amother




Taupe


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:36 pm
Brunette, would you share what the question was?
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amother




Jetblack


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:43 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
Brunette, would you share what the question was?


And which shiur answered it?
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amother




Brunette


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:44 pm
amother [ Taupe ] wrote:
Brunette, would you share what the question was?


I'd probably get the thread locked. :-) I nearly got expelled for the question, after all. I was told that I was leading the other girls astray.

It appeared to be questioning one of the 13 Ikrim, but it actually wasn't. And the answer is that the basis of my question is actually a deliberate choice by the Torah/Hashem.
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:46 pm
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
I'd probably get the thread locked. :-) I nearly got expelled for the question, after all. I was told that I was leading the other girls astray.

It appeared to be questioning one of the 13 Ikrim, but it actually wasn't. And the answer is that the basis of my question is actually a deliberate choice by the Torah/Hashem.


Can you at least list which shiur answered it (if possible) so that those who are interested can listen?


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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amother




Purple


Post  Mon, Jul 01 2019, 5:50 pm
leah233 wrote:
I'm sorry but I don't understand your question. Can you explain?


You said that many of the people who go OTD are those with difficult lives, and the ones who stay tend to have easier lives. First of all, I think that is a gross generalization to the point of complete untruth.

But even if it's true: is that a problem with frumkeit? Or are life struggles just a true litmus test of emunah and bitachon? Yes, it might be easy to stay and follow the party line when things are easy, but when they get tougher, how do you react?

There are many people who have gone through challenges and maintained their emunah. Others have questioned G-d, but are still here.


Last edited by amother on Thu, Jul 04 2019, 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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