Do this because... Or mommy said so

Seraph

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 7:56 am

Do you give reasons when you tell your kids either to do or not do something?
Dilemma- I don't believe in the "Because I/Mommy/Daddy said so."
However, I can see a problem with always giving an explanation "Don't do that- you'll get hurt" or "Clean up that mess so that you'll be able to find your toys later"- because sometimes when they don't agree with your explanation, they may say they won't do it because of that.

So wondering- do you give explanations when you tell your kids to do something?
Or do you just say "Don't do that because mommy said so"?
And if you're asking how this is relevant- well I work with 2 year olds and am always wondering whats the best chinuch method, explaining so they see theres a method to the madness, or not explaining so they learn to "obey".

Tamiri

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 8:01 am

That is assuming they will obey "because I said so". In general, short directions are best - they lose you after the first few words. If a child is in danger or endangering others, then STOP is all you need. You can talk about it later. If they want to paint now, for example, and you don't want them to, then you can give a short expl: We need to daven now, we will paint tomorrow. 2 year olds are easy. It's the older ones you have to figure out..

Seraph

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 8:04 am

Well, example- Daniel is pushing a big grown up chair across the room, climbing on it, and its just dangerous.
Do I say "Don't do that!" Or do I say "Daniel, come off the chair. I don't want you to get hurt"?
Or, Oriya is hitting Aviya- do I tell her "Oriah, no hitting!" Or do I tell her "Don't hit Aviya- it hurts!"

Tamiri

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 8:20 am

For Daniel: Please come off the chair, now! Make sure he listens and hears you and gets down, pronto. Once he is off, you can tell him that climbing on that chair is dangerous and he can get hurt. It may register after 10000 times if he likes that specific activity, if you are lucky.
For hitting: You tell Oriya (was she the hitter) NO HITTING, and take her away from the scene. Then, when you have her attention you tell her to not to touch others in a mean way. I wish you luck with this one. My 3 yo has a short temper and does use his hands more than I would like. He's gotten better, over time... but that's the kid. Some know instinctively never to hit, others don't give a hoot. Just keep at it, and make her know that it's NOT okay to hit. They are very little kids... they need to be taught how to be menches.

shanie5

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 8:25 am

the problem w/ explaining yourself to kids is that they then have an answer why they could still do it. "I dont want you to get hurt" is one of the worst responses I find.

kids (of all ages) are invincible in their own minds. they think they cant get hurt- until they do!!

as for 'dont hit-it hurts' does that mean they can hit if they dont hurt the person they are hitting?

we all hated the "because I said so" answer. and I'd like to know if there are any mothers on this board who havent used it on their children at some point..............

Tamiri

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 8:37 am

Smile, but the thing is: kids have to respect adults by obeying, adults don't have to respect kids by giving explanations. You may have a good kid who accepts your reasoning, but others will just laugh in your face and you just wasted your breath!
First, they listen. Then, you talk. I think.

rosehill

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 8:46 am

I also find it helpful to give the child a positive alternative to their negative behavior. So I would tell Oriyah, "We don't hit. Let's use words to ask Aviyah to give the toy back".
After the second hit, Oriyah gets taken by the hand to the time out chair. Often no words are even necessary, or a simple "Youre in time out because you hit Aviyah instead of using your words".

Seraph

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 8:56 am

rosehill wrote:

Ok, so not all these kids are two. Some are closer to 1.5. And most don't have verbal skills...
One is my nephew and he behaves pretty well, so very rarely is discipline needed. The other kid that talks says one word at a time- "Kikah" and I say "oh, shira- you see a kitty cat?" so not really good enough to use verbal skills...
and this other kid semi talks- not full sentences- but says stuff like "sheli!"
and another kid is too shy- doesnt really talk, besides for this time where she yelled at another kid- "DAI!"
the other kids just point and say eeeeeeeeee...
so this advice seems for slightly older kids...

Tamiri

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 9:09 am

Breslov, these are real babies, then. Just keep your eyes peeled, make sure they aren't getting hurt and wait for another year before you start wasting your breath. Your job is to make sure they are safe and clean and well fed. They are too young for more than minimal chinuch.

rosehill

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 9:12 am

Right, my advice is more for 2-3y.o and up. But even younger than that, you could teach them simple signs like "Give me".
And like Tamiri said, if they're too young to use basic language, they're going to be too young to understand any pilpul on why you're giving the directive you're giving. "NO", or "no" with a removal from the situation seems appropriate.

gryp

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 9:28 am

Tamiri wrote:

Exactly right.

It says that the way kids relate to their parents are the way they will relate to Hashem when they're older. It is very important to teach young children the concept of "Kabbolos Ol Malchus Shamayim," which is that we do things only because Hashem tells us to. So we need to teach our children that concept: Do it because I tell you too.

That doesn't mean you say it over and over until you're blue in the face, but the basic premise should be firmly established and after that we can listen to the reasons. The basic meaning of "Naaseh" and then "Nishmah."

Fox

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 9:49 am

GR wrote:

It says that the way kids relate to their parents are the way they will relate to Hashem when they're older. It is very important to teach young children the concept of "Kabbolos Ol Malchus Shamayim," which is that we do things only because Hashem tells us to. So we need to teach our children that concept: Do it because I tell you too.

This is only half the lesson: the other half is that Hashem tells us to do things because He only wants the best for us. The second half is a much more sophisticated idea, and it often gets lost by parents and teachers who are struggling with it themselves. So while it's true that very young children cannot process much in the way of explanation, we shouldn't take the attitude too far.

Years before I had children myself, I heard a rav speak about the mitzvah of kibud av v'em. He said that the obligation of the mitzvah is on the child -- the *child* is required to find something to honor even in a loathsome parent. But he added that smart parents "behave themselves in such a way that their children find it easy to identify something honorable. After all, you don't want to make it so hard to honor you that the child gives up in frustration."

I think the same sort of restraint applies here. Of course we should teach children to obey. But many people go too far, adopting a "my way or the highway" approach that is about ego, not chinuch. If our children relate to Hashem the way they relate to their parents, we have to find ways to deliver both parts of the message.

gryp

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 10:29 am

Quote:

think the same sort of restraint applies here. Of course we should teach children to obey. But many people go too far, adopting a "my way or the highway" approach that is about ego, not chinuch. If our children relate to Hashem the way they relate to their parents, we have to find ways to deliver both parts of the message.

Oh, definitely. I thought that was understood already.

Ribbie Danzinger

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 11:05 am

I try to use two rules:
1. Always phrase an order in the positive, emphasising the expected result: "Please get back on the floor, now." (as opposed to "get off the chair"). This makes the order far easier to understand. This is especially important in dangerous situations, when a child runs into the road, for instance, "Get back on the sidewalk" tells the child exactly what he should be doing, rather than "Get out of the road" which doesn't direct him to how he should accomplish it.
2. Explain the rules: "We are not allowed to climb on chairs", "we must not hit our friends". This method encourages obedience without making it into a battle. If you give a reason for everything it is likely to arouse problems later, as the reasons we give are usually not absolute. Similarly, if we tell them to do something because "I" told you to do so, it may arouse a desire to rebel against authority.

Another method which is very effective, especially in toddlers, is to redirect their attention to something positive without turning the problem into a discipline issue. For example, while typing this message, my two-and-a-half year old started scribbling with a marker on the baby's buggy, so I offered him a piece of paper and he is now happily scribbling on the paper at the table. I could have added, as I often do, "We are only allowed to draw on paper."

Most important, stay calm and don't take their antics personally. 8)

Imaonwheels

Tue, Dec 25 2007, 11:30 am

I learned an important rule = don't ask unless no is acceptable. That means no please, will you or could you unless you are requesting not telling. Never say "please stop hitting".

At every age appropriate I give reasons, but not at the time of giving a command. The worse thing is to teach a child that his obedience is dependent on his agreement with the reason. Say no. If a 2 yr old doesn't listen do not say it a second time. Walk over and gently physically stop inappropriate behavior.

Talking about the behavior should be separated from the incident.

As Ribbie said, there will be much less trouble if they know from the very beginning what is and isn't allowed. One of our gannenets made a rule book. It is really huge and has a large picture and rule on each page. They read it together a lot in the beginning of the year in circle time.