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-> Judaism
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amother
OP
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 Tue, Jul 02 2019, 5:47 am
The title is saying a lot.
''You are not on your level yet'' I've heard it a lot.
And I don't like it. For instance if I say that I'm not covering inside the house someone will say to me ''You are not that level yet''.
It seems that there is an ideal level of frumkheit and if you reach that you are... A tzaddik? More frum? I've argued with a Chabad rebbetzen that I don't find sleeping with a snood halacha ''but it is'' and then I'm doubting... and then I think am I on the right level? Do I want to be frumer and frumer? Is for instance a chassidisha lady with 14 children and always in a snood or spitzelech, always in stockings more holy then me? And who decides that? It seems only outlook so for instance if I come in with my very long aubrun sheital I'm not enough tznius and therefore not frum enough for an certain group? Or I'm not on that level yet... It totally assumes for me that there is a kinda of jewish enlightment you want to strive to and I don't feel it that way. I do the best I can and maybe I look still secular from the outside I steel feel frum but what do people mean by ''your level'' it gives as I say a segretation, and I don't know anymore what the goal is for the mitzvos to go to a higher level.... This is an struggle for me some people also have this?
Btw I'm BT so I did not have had the education and everything
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amother
Orchid
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 5:52 am
When people say that, ask what level they aspire to. No, it's not true that more covered is always better. We don't do burqas.
Also, fyi, Lubavitch has many rules that aren't followed by any other group. When someone tells you that something is halacha, ask whether they mean that this is particular to Lubavitch.
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PinkFridge
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 5:52 am
It could mean a few different things.
It could be tremendously condescending, or the speaker might simply mean, don't bite off more than you can chew.
I'm saying this in general, not specifically what someone might have meant in speaking to you.
BTW, we're all works in progress.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 5:55 am
| amother [ Orchid ] wrote: | When people say that, ask what level they aspire to. No, it's not true that more covered is always better. We don't do burqas.
Also, fyi, Lubavitch has many rules that aren't followed by any other group. When someone tells you that something is halacha, ask whether they mean that this is particular to Lubavitch. |
They say sometimes to me that is in the sluchan aruch. It was also weird for me in the beginning that some people where eating cookies from the supermarket and the other one only with hescher and they said I needed to do that too.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 5:57 am
and isn't the frummer the better?
Or is that just weird to think that? I'm really struggeling with this.
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singleagain
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:03 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | and isn't the frummer the better?
Or is that just weird to think that? I'm really struggeling with this. |
But which way is frummer?
Some ppl say sheital is frummer. Some say tichel is frummer...
They can't both be more frum...
Part of the problem is everyone's standard is different.
Some things aren't objectively better. And I don't think "level of frum" is at all objective.
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zaq
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:03 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | and isn't the frummer the better?
Or is that just weird to think that? I'm really struggeling with this. |
But what is “frummer ”? Following an invented restriction that has no basis in Halacha is not holier; it can be evidence of mental illness as in religious OCD or just plain shtus, as in the infamous Burqa ladies and shawl ladies.
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amother
OP
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:09 am
| zaq wrote: | | But what is “frummer ”? Following an invented restriction that has no basis in Halacha is not holier; it can be evidence of mental illness as in religious OCD or just plain shtus, as in the infamous Burqa ladies and shawl ladies. |
I will not saying that a burqa lady is more frum and where is the line to OCD and mental illness?
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amother
Red
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:09 am
| zaq wrote: | | But what is “frummer ”? Following an invented restriction that has no basis in Halacha is not holier; it can be evidence of mental illness as in religious OCD or just plain shtus, as in the infamous Burqa ladies and shawl ladies. |
Who's to say what's invented? There are so many machlokes and different ways to look at and interpret things that it's hard to say what's real halacha and what's not. In that BC thread we have many woman who feel the need to ask a rav whether they can stop having babies. They believe they are required to ask and get a heter before stopping. There are a million examples like this.
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champagne
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:11 am
Just a few thoughts, please correct me if I made a mistake below.
Regarding whether something is Halacha or not: Different sects in Judaism interpret different Halachos differently. There are things Litvish people are makpid on that Lubavitchers aren’t. Usually, whatever sect you belong to/live in, those are the halachos you follow. It’s called having a mesorah, which basically means you can trace back what you’re doing to rabbanim who have interpreted the Torah/Gemara/Shulchan Aruch a certain way, because frum Jews believe that we can’t just take Torah at face value—we need to interpret it (unlike historical sects like the tzedukim, who only believe in Torah she’bksav—what is written down.)
If someone is Litvish they should follow their interpretations/Minhagim, if someone is chassidish they should follow theirs.
Of course, basically no frum Jew follows every single Halacha perfectly—whether they struggle with it emotionally, or they simply don’t know the Halacha.
Really, the reason we do all of this—any of this—is to have a closer relationship with Hashem. Unfortunately, it’s hard to see what’s clear and right in Galus, and it’s hard to see G-d or even want a relationship with Him, so you’re right, perhaps some people who look frummer than you don’t have a relationship with Hashem. Perhaps some do. You can never know, which means it’s not important. You should just focus on how you can grow, how you can bring more meaning into your life and infuse your home with G-dliness.
One way I try to get there is by doing Hashem wants instead of what I want; even when it’s sometimes hard. Or I’ll learn something in Jewish thought to feel connected. Or I’ll give to others. Everyone is on their own journey, and it doesn’t matter what journey other people are on. (Unless you’re choosing a role model, or have the ability to influence someone positively.)
Perhaps when people say to you “you’re not on that level” they are trying to help you absolve yourself or guilt, perfectionism and overachieving. I don’t know why people things. Really, everyone should be focusing on their own avodah.
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amother
Blush
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:15 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | | They say sometimes to me that is in the sluchan aruch. It was also weird for me in the beginning that some people where eating cookies from the supermarket and the other one only with hescher and they said I needed to do that too. |
You NEED to do what you and your DH are comfortable with, not what other people think you should be doing. But maybe you shouldn’t listen to me as I don’t cover in my home at all and don’t aspire to do so.
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amother
Red
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:26 am
| champagne wrote: | Just a few thoughts, please correct me if I made a mistake below.
Regarding whether something is Halacha or not: Different sects in Judaism interpret different Halachos differently. There are things Litvish people are makpid on that Lubavitchers aren’t. Usually, whatever sect you belong to/live in, those are the halachos you follow. It’s called having a mesorah, which basically means you can trace back what you’re doing to rabbanim who have interpreted the Torah/Gemara/Shulchan Aruch a certain way, because frum Jews believe that we can’t just take Torah at face value—we need to interpret it (unlike historical sects like the tzedukim, who only believe in Torah she’bksav—what is written down.)
If someone is Litvish they should follow their interpretations/Minhagim, if someone is chassidish they should follow theirs.
Of course, basically no frum Jew follows every single Halacha perfectly—whether they struggle with it emotionally, or they simply don’t know the Halacha.
Really, the reason we do all of this—any of this—is to have a closer relationship with Hashem. Unfortunately, it’s hard to see what’s clear and right in Galus, and it’s hard to see G-d or even want a relationship with Him, so you’re right, perhaps some people who look frummer than you don’t have a relationship with Hashem. Perhaps some do. You can never know, which means it’s not important. You should just focus on how you can grow, how you can bring more meaning into your life and infuse your home with G-dliness.
One way I try to get there is by doing Hashem wants instead of what I want; even when it’s sometimes hard. Or I’ll learn something in Jewish thought to feel connected. Or I’ll give to others. Everyone is on their own journey, and it doesn’t matter what journey other people are on. (Unless you’re choosing a role model, or have the ability to influence someone positively.)
Perhaps when people say to you “you’re not on that level” they are trying to help you absolve yourself or guilt, perfectionism and overachieving. I don’t know why people things. Really, everyone should be focusing on their own avodah. | [u]
I think the bolded is tricky because it seems hashem wants different things from different communities which is somewhat difficult to accept. If you're a chassidish woman then hashem doesn't want you driving. He also doesn't want you to stop having babies unless you get permission from your rav. If you're a modern woman then hashem is ok with you going to movies and wearing a skirt a little above the knee. He's also ok with you not having children until you finish graduate school at age 30. After that, he's fine with you having 3 kids so you can afford to live in a nice house. No need to ask a rav for permission.
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Ema of 5
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:43 am
| amother [ Orchid ] wrote: | When people say that, ask what level they aspire to. No, it's not true that more covered is always better. We don't do burqas.
Also, fyi, Lubavitch has many rules that aren't followed by any other group. When someone tells you that something is halacha, ask whether they mean that this is particular to Lubavitch. |
Chabad does have their own rules, but asking who something applies to should be with anything and anyone, not just Chabad. I have a sister who is super yeshivish and a sister who is chassidish, and many of the things they do don’t apply to me and my life.
In general, there are many different approaches to Judaism, and one is not NORE correct than another, as long as they all follow the torah. Each group and sect has rabbis who interpret the torah according to their understanding. Each interpretation is different, but right for that group. For me, head shaving isn’t right, but for some chassidim it is. That doesn’t mean I’m not on that level, or that I’m doing something wrong by not shaving or by following Halacha the way I do.
The whole beauty of Judaism is the diversity, and the ability to learn and grow. I will be the best ME by doing things that are right for ME, not by doing what’s right for other people. When I die, I won’t be asked why I didn’t shave my head or always cover my legs, because those things are not a part of MY life, guided by MY rabbi.
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amother
Pearl
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:50 am
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I always say I am not yet at the highest level I can be. I chose a derech to follow and on that derech I can be better. I will never think sleeping with my hair covered, or wearing stockings all the time is the highest level I can reach, because it's not my derech and I don't follow that. You should pick a community or standards you want to follow and strive to be the best on that derech. You don't have to try to be the frummest or take on every single communities standards.
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amother
Amethyst
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:50 am
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But then- if its so so hard for me to say- shave- or cover my feet- but I follow what my rav says- dont I get extra schar for that? If not thats a hard pill to swallow
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naturalmom5
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:53 am
OP, sorry to be cynical.
But everything you are describing seems very external and superficial.. I can take the most banal heathen lady from the street and put a piece of cloth on her head..
Learn a perek of Tanya or Mesilas Yesharim every day and internalize it.
Do a quiet chesed for someone daily that you don't get covod for.
Make a Kiddush Hashem whenever you go to the store or work..
Be scrupulously honest in all your business dealings.
Smile.. The Gam' in Brochos says giving a smile is more than giving gold and silver..
That is real spiritual growth..
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Ema of 5
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 6:58 am
| amother [ Red ] wrote: | [u]
I think the bolded is tricky because it seems hashem wants different things from different communities which is somewhat difficult to accept. If you're a chassidish woman then hashem doesn't want you driving. He also doesn't want you to stop having babies unless you get permission from your rav. If you're a modern woman then hashem is ok with you going to movies and wearing a skirt a little above the knee. He's also ok with you not having children until you finish graduate school at age 30. After that, he's fine with you having 3 kids so you can afford to live in a nice house. No need to ask a rav for permission. |
I think HaShem wants different things from each individual. I won’t be the best me by doing what’s best for other people. HaShem did not make the distinctions that you listen, people did. If a chassidish woman is doing her best and doing what works for her and her family, I think that’s what HaShem cares about. I honestly don’t think HaShem cares about incidentals and appearances. If what we do is connecting us to HaShem and bringing us closer, than I think HaShem is happy.
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Ema of 5
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 7:01 am
| amother [ Amethyst ] wrote: | | But then- if its so so hard for me to say- shave- or cover my feet- but I follow what my rav says- dont I get extra schar for that? If not thats a hard pill to swallow |
You definitely get extra reward for doing things that are hard for you, but only if those things are part of your way of life, or if you do them l’shem shamayim.
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amother
Amethyst
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 7:03 am
| Ema of 4 wrote: | | You definitely get extra reward for doing things that are hard for you, but only if those things are part of your way of life, or if you do them l’shem shamayim. |
Nicely put!
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DrMom
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Tue, Jul 02 2019, 7:42 am
| amother [ OP ] wrote: | The title is saying a lot.
''You are not on your level yet'' I've heard it a lot.
And I don't like it. For instance if I say that I'm not covering inside the house someone will say to me ''You are not that level yet''.
It seems that there is an ideal level of frumkheit and if you reach that you are... A tzaddik? More frum? I've argued with a Chabad rebbetzen that I don't find sleeping with a snood halacha ''but it is'' and then I'm doubting... and then I think am I on the right level? Do I want to be frumer and frumer? Is for instance a chassidisha lady with 14 children and always in a snood or spitzelech, always in stockings more holy then me? And who decides that? It seems only outlook so for instance if I come in with my very long aubrun sheital I'm not enough tznius and therefore not frum enough for an certain group? Or I'm not on that level yet... It totally assumes for me that there is a kinda of jewish enlightment you want to strive to and I don't feel it that way. I do the best I can and maybe I look still secular from the outside I steel feel frum but what do people mean by ''your level'' it gives as I say a segretation, and I don't know anymore what the goal is for the mitzvos to go to a higher level.... This is an struggle for me some people also have this?
Btw I'm BT so I did not have had the education and everything |
By definition, how can you not be at your level?
These people commenting about your "level" (seems to be a measure of chumrot and not halchot) sound very intrusive.
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