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Where a Yeshivish family should move from Israel to USA?
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:03 am
Hi,

We are considering moving from E"Y back to the states after living in E"Y for around 7 years. We both grew up in the USA but our kids were all born in E"Y. We are looking for some guidance as to the best place to live. We are considering the following places right now, but would be open to hear other ideas:
Passaic/Clifton
Jackson
Cleveland
Baltimore

We both grew up MO, but are now charedi/Yeshivish. Our kids go to charedi Israeli chadarim and are growing up very integrated into Israeli charedi society. We do not ascribe to the "be American in Israel" camp. Husband learns half the day and works half the day. We daven and are friends with kollel families and shtark working families. We only have kosher phones, internet only for work, no movies for the kids.

Although from an American standard, our house would be considered small and simple, from an Israeli perspective, we are very "megusham". Our kids are dressed nicely, we buy food like Americans, go on vacations, we have walls which are not painted white, we have nice furniture and lighting fixtures etc...

We are mainly thinking about moving because we don't agree with the Israeli educational system (lack of BASIC secular education for the boys and no normal physical activities, or kosher outlets). We also are very turned off by the culture, (which we rightly or wrongly interpret as a lack of middos/derech eretz etc...)and the extreme shunning of all gashmiyus among the people we live around. For example, we feel that in Israeli Charedi society , you are looked down upon if you have a nice sized house, or a decent car (or a car at all!), but in many places in the US it's the total opposite. We are just looking for somewhere in between these two extremes.

To summarize we are looking for a place where:
- The families are sincerely frum, growing bnei aliyah (not simply I'm Yeshivish because I was born that way)

-Families believe strongly in dass torah, very makpid on halacha and learning is a top priority.

- Children are highly encouraged to learn after marriage, but are given the skills and hashfaka that it's OK to support your family if/when the situation arises.

- Having a large house with a big backyard, nice furnishings, appliances is not looked down upon, but people keep it within reason and are not into gashmiyus/trends for the sake of gashmiyus (this is obviously subjective)

-Neighborhood is clean and not run-down / old

- People are super friendly, great middos, welcoming (I.e. more out of town)
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amother




Ginger


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:07 am
I live in Baltimore- sounds like you'd certainly find a place here.
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amother




Copper


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:09 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
internet only for work

aaaaand ima Wink
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:13 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:

Our kids go to charedi Israeli chadarim and are growing up very integrated into Israeli charedi society...

We are mainly thinking about moving because we don't agree with the Israeli educational system (lack of BASIC secular education for the boys and no normal physical activities, or kosher outlets). We also are very turned off by the culture, lack of middos/derech eretz etc...and the extreme shunning of all gashmiyus. For example, we feel that in Israeli Charedi society , you are looked down upon if you have a nice sized house, or a decent car (or a car at all!), but in many places in the US it's the total opposite. We are just looking for somewhere in between these two extremes.

I just wanted to mention that these problems are not cross-Israel issues. Mamlachti dati schools do indeed offer basic education for boys (and girls) and offer many normal physical activities (soccer, basketball, karate, etc.).

For better or for worse, gashmiyus is not frowned upon.

Just wanted to mention this in case anyone thinks otherwise.

OP, best of luck finding a place where you and your family can fit in and flourish.
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24-7




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:13 am
Please private message me as I might have an idea for you.
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amother




Copper


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:19 am
DrMom wrote:
I just wanted to mention that these problems are not cross-Israel issues. Mamlachti dati schools do indeed offer basic education for boys (and girls) and offer many normal physical activities (soccer, basketball, karate, etc.).

For better or for worse, gashmiyus is not frowned upon.

Just wanted to mention this in case anyone thinks otherwise.

OP, best of luck finding a place where you and your family can fit in and flourish.


For sure, but the OP is specifically coming from a haredi perspective.
I don't know where she was that gashmiyus is looked down upon. Israeli haredim enjoy their gashmiyus as much as the next guy! Expensive boutique clothing and sheitels, kids matching, high end furniture stores, hotel programs, expensive food (hech$ers!!)...... I could go on.

Edit: Slategray hit the nail on the head. While sometimes one can feel bitter when things don't work out in a certain place, it doesn't justify bad mouthing everything there.
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amother




Slategray


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:21 am
DrMom wrote:
I just wanted to mention that these problems are not cross-Israel issues. Mamlachti dati schools do indeed offer basic education for boys (and girls) and offer many normal physical activities (soccer, basketball, karate, etc.).

For better or for worse, gashmiyus is not frowned upon.

Just wanted to mention this in case anyone thinks otherwise.

OP, best of luck finding a place where you and your family can fit in and flourish.


I'd like to chime in that there are many chareidi schools where it's not a problem either. My son is learning all the basic subjects in his cheder and they play ball in the yards by recess.

Many people in my neighborhood have beautiful renovated apt's.
(I personally have an old apt because that is all I can afford right now.)

Derech eretz is definitely emphasized in both my boys and my girls schools and the education is top notch.

Of course you should move if you're unhappy, but please don't denigrate an entire country. You could have very easily stated what type of community you are looking for without having to say LH (motzei shem rah?) about Eretz Yisrael.
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:28 am
amother [ Copper ] wrote:
For sure, but the OP is specifically coming from a haredi perspective.
I don't know where she was that gashmiyus is looked down upon. Israeli haredim enjoy their gashmiyus as much as the next guy! Expensive boutique clothing and sheitels, kids matching, high end furniture stores, hotel programs, expensive food (hech$ers!!)...... I could go on.



This really depends which group of "Israeli haredim" you are talking about. In my kids schools, this is not the case. Everyone is on a very tight kollel budget and would never go to a hotel program, go out for dinner or buy expensive food during the week. What you are describing is more "charedi moderni" (not meant as a negative, that's just the term which is used). We don't feel comfortable in that world for many reasons.
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:31 am
amother [ Slategray ] wrote:


Of course you should move if you're unhappy, but please don't denigrate an entire country. You could have very easily stated what type of community you are looking for without having to say LH (motzei shem rah?) about Eretz Yisrael.


That was not the intention and very sorry if it came across as denigrating. There are tons of positives about living in E"Y and of course there are many people with amazing middos and derech eretz in E"Y. However, the difference is mainly cultural. We feel that in general Americans are more of what we are looking for.

[EDIT]: I also updated the original post to fix that possible LH.
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amother




Powderblue


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:36 am
Is parnassa not a concern? I don't think you would be happy with the boys high schools in the Lakewood area. Nothing wrong with them, but they don't seem to meet your requirements.
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:48 am
I think certain areas in Jackson could work for you. However, good luck with the Lakewood school system.
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:49 am
amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:
Is parnassa not a concern? I don't think you would be happy with the boys high schools in the Lakewood area. Nothing wrong with them, but they don't seem to meet your requirements.



Parnassa is hopefully OK either way.

Can you explain why Lakewood area schools wouldn't be a good fit (besides for the OOT feel)?
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amother




OP


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:50 am
Chayalle wrote:
I think certain areas in Jackson could work for you. However, good luck with the Lakewood school system.


Thanks so much! Can you give some details- street names, shul names, or school names which would help us track down the right area?
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amother




Powderblue


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:50 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Parnassa is hopefully OK either way.

Can you explain why Lakewood area schools wouldn't be a good fit (besides for the OOT feel)?


From your op:
- Children are highly encouraged to learn after marriage, but are given the skills and hashfaka that it's OK to support your family if/when the situation arises
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amother




Oak


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 11:53 am
I live in Lkwd.

I would caution you to think very hard before coming here. From your post, it sounds like you are straddling the lines between idealism and practicality and trying to find your middle road. There are many, many people who would fit your description here, many many people who are balanced, wonderful, thinking, caring individuals. However, I think that Lakewood, in a public, aggregate way, is a place that holds a lot of extremes. This comes out in attitudes about schools and institutions and how they run and other ways as well.

TBH, you sound like many young people who reach a crossroads in their maturity and growth and are ready for the next level. Many couples start off their married lives embracing a certain way of life and its associated norms, and as they have children and get to know each other for a while, realize the need to individualize and mature according to their own values and not just another face in the crowd. This is normal growing up for a couple married for 7 years and having kids begin to enter the school system of their community. You would probably have these kinds of growing pains wherever you lived as you begin to analyze where you are, your community, and how you belong - as individuals, family, and community members - and your place in the world.
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Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 11:54 am
don't move to cleveland without a job.
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kollel wife




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:01 pm
In many ways, I'd recommend Lakewood (Jackson - for buying a house.)

Compared to Eretz Yisroel, you might be ok with the level of secular studies in Lakewood. However, there is a wide variety of gashmius as well as varietey in terms of yeshivish-ness.
You'd have to do research on neighborhoods and schools to find a match. But schools are super hard to get into. I'm not sure what to do about that. Maybe others can tell you how to proceed.
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mha3484




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:03 pm
I would look at smaller communities like Baltimore, Cleveland even Chicago. I think they will be less overwhelming then the NY/NJ area for your kids.
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:10 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thanks so much! Can you give some details- street names, shul names, or school names which would help us track down the right area?


From your post, it seems that you may not be aware that Jackson does not have its own infrastructure for frum people. There are no schools that are unique to jackson. Many areas in Jackson don't have formal shuls yet either - more like a minyan in a rented space or in someone's basement. They do not have mikvaos. They do not yet have Kosher groceries. For all of this, they come to Lakewood.

So if you are asking about moving to Jackson, you need to be aware that at least in the near future, you will be depending on Lakewood for all of the above.

Depending on the ages of your kids...the various Brookwood areas could work for you because they are more yeshivish, but somewhat more chilled. Ditto for the Brewers Bridge area and streets off it. The East Veterans area has nicer housing, but they are more spread apart and perhaps somewhat less yeshivish (though definitely a mix so that's not hard and fast). The White Road area may also have more yeshivish people, but I think the houses are older on the whole.

There are lots of threads about Lakewood schools. Try searching those for an idea of what might interest you.
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amother




Smokey


Post  Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:11 pm
Detroit might be a good place to look into.
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