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If you are a convert or BT, how would you react...
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 11:44 am
amother [ Ruby ] wrote:
Same. Convert here.

Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:19 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Thank you for restoring my faith in humanity

Your attitude here is pretty offensive.

A convert destroyed your faith in humanity by not wanting her kids to go OTD, just like nearly all FFB parents?? It's seriously unfair to converts to say they have no right to want their kids to share their beliefs. A convert has every right in the world to want all of the things you want.

And vice versa, too. You living the same lifestyle your parents do doesn't buy you permission to put expectations on your kids. Kids of FFBs have just as much right to go OTD as anyone else.
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amother
Seafoam


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:21 pm
And I can't believe that someone told you her life story, and you reacted by accusing her of throwing her parents' beliefs in their faces. That is so, so inappropriate.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:21 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
But doesn’t she understand that just how she chose her own path, different than her parents, they did the exact same thing? That’s what baffles me. More than when an ffb parent doesn’t understand. Therein lies my confusion.


sounds like you are comparing a person who worked really hard to get into Harvard and not being able to comprehend her children choosing Yale and Princeton (or community college).

Its not like that. Converting, or being religious is about seeking truth - and living the way that you believe Hashem expects (and which is subject to consequence when rules are not followed). Seeing your child reject that is very hard.

We as frum Jews don't consider not being frum an acceptable choice. We tolerate it as needed.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:27 pm
the problem is that once you are jewish to be not frum is considered sinning. My friends who are converts from religious families have said that its hard for their parents because they think that my friends are going to hell for not following yoshke.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:47 pm
I'm not a BT but my father is one.

If an OTD child of mine bent over backwards like my father did to avoid friction with his parents and relatives it would be very different than a child who went OTD and didn't. (see below)

Also my grandparents didn't feel nearly as strongly about their beliefs and way of life as I do about mine.

Finally their secular liberal beliefs specifically valued the concept of giving a child the right to choose what they want to do with their life. Therefore my father choosing a different lifestyle and beliefs wasn't really a rejection of their beliefs and values to begin with.

On another note If a BT would write a memoir making fun of their parents, former spouses and acquaintances like some of the OTD memoirs I've read, I would consider that BT to be an absolute disgusting evil piece of scum. I would 100% blame the BT for all the problems with her family and former community
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 12:56 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
I'm not a BT but my father is.

If an OTD child of mine bent over backwards like my father did to avoid friction with his parents and relatives it would be very different than a child who went OTD and didn't. (see below)

Also my grandparents didn't feel nearly as strongly about their beliefs and way of life as I do about mine.

Finally their secular liberal beliefs specifically valued the concept of giving a child the right to choose what they want to do with their life. Therefore my father choosing a different lifestyle and beliefs wasn't really a rejection of their beliefs and values to begin with.

On another note If a BT would write a memoir making fun of their parents, former spouses and acquaintances like some of the OTD memories I read, I would consider that BT to be an absolute disgusting evil piece of scum. I would 100% blame the BT for all the problems with her family and former community

So for you it’s about respect and avoiding friction. I get that. I think a child who feels respected will give respect in return.
And this is exactly what this woman did. She made fun of her parents and family. Even picked up some of the racist attitude of the Frum community. It just really rubbed me the wrong way.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:01 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
If your child went OTD ie did the same thing you did but in reverse?
I recently sat through a lecture of a convert, the way she described her parents she made them seem really dumb, I dunno maybe they are. She was just very condescending in describing their belief system and how she knows they’ll never come to terms with her transformation so she had to find a new family, yada yada.
So I asked her, privately at the end, what she would do if her child sat her down and told her what she told her parents. That they no longer believed what she believed and are choosing a different path.
She was very uncomfortable with the question. At first she tried giving the pat Frum answer of “I’d try to figure out why they were doing it”, which is classic double-standard. Because obviously if you convert to Judaism it’s all logical and true but if you stop believing there must be some emotional reason. Then I said “you pretty much threw your parents beliefs in their face, yet you want their acceptance, would you be able to give this to your child?”
So in the end she just said “let’s hope I’ll never have to find out”.
Sigh. So disappointing. But so not surprising. I always wondered what goes through the minds of BTs and converts and I guess now I know. Or do I?
Please tell me there are BTs and converts out there who know what it’s like to choose a different path than the one you grew up in, and would be able to still love and accept their children no matter what.


Reminds me of my mom. A BT who would not let me date any BT's.
And flipped out when my sister decided she'd rather be Modern Orthodox than Yeshivish.
And she says the yeshivish system is so judgmental.
Honesty, I find her more judgmental than the system.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:03 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
So for you it’s about respect and avoiding friction. I get that. I think a child who feels respected will give respect in return.
And this is exactly what this woman did. She made fun of her parents and family. Even picked up some of the racist attitude of the Frum community. It just really rubbed me the wrong way.


I bet she was in some, likely unconscious way, saying what she thought people wanted to hear.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:14 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
I bet she was in some, likely unconscious way, saying what she thought people wanted to hear.

Like, “look, I’m so white now that I’m Jewish, even I think latinas are disgusting lowlives.”
She literally insinuated that when she came out of that mikvah she felt more “Jewish” AKA white. That when she looks at “former” pics of herself she feels like that’s not her.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:16 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Like, “look, I’m so white now that I’m Jewish, even I think latinas are disgusting lowlives.”
She literally insinuated that when she came out of that mikvah she felt more “Jewish” AKA white. That when she looks at “former” pics of herself she feels like that’s not her.


OK.

I don't know where you are going with this.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:22 pm
OP, are you me? I have had this question for the past 25 years. I think a questioning, searching person who bucks the system they're in may become a BT or Ger. Their kids may also be questioning and searching. Who says they find the same path as their parent?

Im neither a BT or Ger, but I accept my kids may choose a different path than I did. (I DID choose my path, after examining my choices.) I live consistent with my beliefs, and have open conversations about faith, truth and religion. I hope I gave them the tools to discern, question, seek and live authentically.

I dont understand how anyone assumes their kids will follow their path in 2019, BT and Ger notwithstanding. Perhaps people who are not seekers assume their progeny wont be seekers.
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amother
Puce


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:27 pm
When I told my parents and siblings that I was converting, they were all 100% supportive. The only thing they wanted to ensure was that I was converting voluntarily (aka no one forcing me) and that I was truly happy. Once I reassured them yes to both, they started thinking of ways of how to help me and accommodate me. So because of my own experience, I would support my child no matter what. Would I be upset? Of course! But my children are my children whether they are frum or not.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:27 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
OP, are you me? I have had this question for the past 25 years. I think a questioning, searching person who bucks the system they're in may become a BT or Ger. Their kids may also be questioning and searching. Who says they find the same path as their parent?

Im neither a BT or Ger, but I accept my kids may choose a different path than I did. (I DID choose my path, after examining my choices.) I live consistent with my beliefs, and have open conversations about faith, truth and religion. I hope I gave them the tools to discern, question, seek and live authentically.

I dont understand how anyone assumes their kids will follow their path in 2019, BT and Ger notwithstanding. Perhaps people who are not seekers assume their progeny wont be seekers.


If you teach them 'this is for me' but it 'might not be for you' - you are providing a message that is not consistent with Orthodox Judaism.

We don't have a concept of "personal truth".
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:32 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
OP, are you me? I have had this question for the past 25 years. I think a questioning, searching person who bucks the system they're in may become a BT or Ger. Their kids may also be questioning and searching. Who says they find the same path as their parent?

Im neither a BT or Ger, but I accept my kids may choose a different path than I did. (I DID choose my path, after examining my choices.) I live consistent with my beliefs, and have open conversations about faith, truth and religion. I hope I gave them the tools to discern, question, seek and live authentically.

I dont understand how anyone assumes their kids will follow their path in 2019, BT and Ger notwithstanding. Perhaps people who are not seekers assume their progeny wont be seekers.

Yes!
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amother
Blonde


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:37 pm
OP, you are giving a lot of details about this woman especially if she recently gave a public speech. Out of respect for her privacy, you should delete that info imo.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:38 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Yes!


Would you be OK if your kids abandoned Yidishkeit because its just a lifestyle choice?
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:53 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Like, “look, I’m so white now that I’m Jewish, even I think latinas are disgusting lowlives.”
She literally insinuated that when she came out of that mikvah she felt more “Jewish” AKA white. That when she looks at “former” pics of herself she feels like that’s not her.

Did she actually say that first thing, or that's how you understood it?

I'm not sure why someone saying they felt more Jewish would mean they felt white. Ditto for looking at old pictures - I assume she means "feels like it's not me" as in, "my personal sense of identity was so different back then that it feels like a different person," not, "I literally think my DNA changed and I am now of a different ethnicity."
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 1:55 pm
ora_43 wrote:
Did she actually say that first thing, or that's how you understood it?

I'm not sure why someone saying they felt more Jewish would mean they felt white. Ditto for looking at old pictures - I assume she means "feels like it's not me" as in, "my personal sense of identity was so different back then that it feels like a different person," not, "I literally think my DNA changed and I am now of a different ethnicity."

She pretty much was racist about her family of origin. The other things were insinuated. She said people tell her all the time that she looks different. So yeah it doesn’t have to mean that but In context it felt that way.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 2:07 pm
Jetblack,
My religious faith and practice is not a lifestyle choice. I dont think it would be for a searching soul. I accept if my child is pulled in a different direction. That could be "less" or "more" or "different" observant than I.

I find your assumption about "personal truth" interesting. There are many paths of authentic Torah Judaism, and many inauthentic paths. You can never tell which type of path another person is on, as it can be an internal process. Search for truth may lead different people to different paths. I'm not afraid of that. I believe it, I live it.

People who are doing Judaism as a lifestyle choice are not the ones I'm speaking of.
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