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If you are a convert or BT, how would you react...
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 5:11 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
She pretty much was racist about her family of origin. The other things were insinuated. She said people tell her all the time that she looks different. So yeah it doesn’t have to mean that but In context it felt that way.

I can't tell if you think converts and BTs in general have no right to judge anyone for changing their lifestyle, or if you were just personally offended by the way this one person talked about her family.

I don't know you or her, but just based on this thread, it sounds like some of her baggage about her family came out in her talk (I would guess there was some trauma there; it's definitely not the norm for a BT or convert to think poorly of their family), and some of your anger over frum racism and people who don't tolerate OTD kids came out in how you interpreted what she was saying.

I'm sure you didn't mean your post to be hurtful, but as a non-FFB it's not so nice to feel like I have to prove to you that this whole big, wildly diverse group I'm a part of is OK, just because a random lady I've never met said something I didn't hear that you didn't like. Especially when you've made it so clear what the right answer is.
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amother
OP


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 5:21 pm
ora_43 wrote:
I can't tell if you think converts and BTs in general have no right to judge anyone for changing their lifestyle, or if you were just personally offended by the way this one person talked about her family.

I don't know you or her, but just based on this thread, it sounds like some of her baggage about her family came out in her talk (I would guess there was some trauma there; it's definitely not the norm for a BT or convert to think poorly of their family), and some of your anger over frum racism and people who don't tolerate OTD kids came out in how you interpreted what she was saying.

I'm sure you didn't mean your post to be hurtful, but as a non-FFB it's not so nice to feel like I have to prove to you that this whole big, wildly diverse group I'm a part of is OK, just because a random lady I've never met said something I didn't hear that you didn't like. Especially when you've made it so clear what the right answer is.

Your assessment is pretty accurate
And I didn’t expect you to defend an entire group. Just wanted to hear that there ARE BTs who are accepting of their kids choices.
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cbsp




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 5:41 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
She pretty much was racist about her family of origin. The other things were insinuated. She said people tell her all the time that she looks different. So yeah it doesn’t have to mean that but In context it felt that way.


Please tell me verbatim what those words were that were racist. Actual racism, not just disapproval of /descriptions of faults of her former lifestyle /religion.

Note: racism does not equal disapproval or disagreement.

She is a giyores so her ethnicity now is Jewish, with a Jewish neshama. There's nothing "white" about being Jewish, why are you making this about what you feel her race should be??? Did she actually use the words "I felt more white"???

Why do you need her to keep her old ethnicity? Your words and attitude are what would be keeping her as "other." How condescending of you to decide how she should be viewing herself.

And since you don't actually know her entire life story, how do you know her answers about her kids had anything to do with what you assumed? So much of your OP is attacks on her based on your assumptions!
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amother
Periwinkle


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 6:01 pm
seemingly something about her and her talk triggered you -- thats about you not her or anyone else.
if you truly want to grow and value honesty then figure out what it is about yourself and work on yourself.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 6:18 pm
but OP why is it hard to understand that it hurts parents when they think their children are sinning? going off the derech isn't like leaving your city life to live on a farm. It's not just a different lifestyle. I realize that BT children may feel like going OTD is more of a possibility since they saw their parents change lifestyles but I still understand why it would upset the parent.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 7:05 pm
Hi. Have you met me? Very Happy I post all the time about DD.

I would not call her OTD. She is a really good kid, and does lots of mitzvot all the time. She is a good influence on her friend group, and has a very loving heart. She is respectful of other people's beliefs and cultures.

She is currently not observant. She has green hair, and a new lip piercing. None of this makes her a bad kid. She's focused on getting good grades, and finding a job for the summer. She is determined to go to college, and is willing to work hard for it.

Not going to lie, it took me a while to adjust to the fact that she was finding her own way in the world, and it was not the way that I raised her. I felt like a total failure for a long time, and thought that I would have to answer to Hashem for being a terrible parent. I cried a LOT, and we had some pretty spectacular arguments.

I was lucky to have some very wise people help me through this, especially my rebbetzin. I've come to realize that after bas mitzva, everything is between her and Hashem. I gave her a very solid Orthodox upbringing, so if she wants to come back she'll know where she came from. I daven all the time for her, but it's out of my hands now.

Now, I am incredibly proud of who she is. I can appreciate her for exactly where she's holding, without having to compromise my own beliefs. We have a very good relationship, because she knows that I will love her no matter what.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 7:22 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Jetblack,
My religious faith and practice is not a lifestyle choice. I dont think it would be for a searching soul. I accept if my child is pulled in a different direction. That could be "less" or "more" or "different" observant than I.

I find your assumption about "personal truth" interesting. There are many paths of authentic Torah Judaism, and many inauthentic paths. You can never tell which type of path another person is on, as it can be an internal process. Search for truth may lead different people to different paths. I'm not afraid of that. I believe it, I live it.

People who are doing Judaism as a lifestyle choice are not the ones I'm speaking of.


You are then talking about different paths within Torah Judaism - not someone who decides to drop it all and become a Buddhist - correct?

Seeking - is great, if what is sought is within the confines of Torah - is that what you meant?
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Flip Flops




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 9:23 pm
Some of these comments are really making my upset.
BTs and converts chose Judaism because it is right. Because that is the way Hashem wants us to live our lives. If our children choose otherwise - of course its upsetting!!! Of course once they are OTD you should not reject them, but because you chose the right path, it doesn't mean that everyone can do as they wish and choose what they want without it hurting you.
It's not the same as you choosing to eat chocolate ice cream and your daughter choosing vanilla.
Of course parents of BT and converts may be hurt/upset/rejected by what their child did but that doesn't mean you should be happy for your children to go against the Torah.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:00 pm
FranticFrummie wrote:
Hi. Have you met me? Very Happy I post all the time about DD.

I would not call her OTD. She is a really good kid, and does lots of mitzvot all the time. She is a good influence on her friend group, and has a very loving heart. She is respectful of other people's beliefs and cultures.

She is currently not observant. She has green hair, and a new lip piercing. None of this makes her a bad kid. She's focused on getting good grades, and finding a job for the summer. She is determined to go to college, and is willing to work hard for it.

Not going to lie, it took me a while to adjust to the fact that she was finding her own way in the world, and it was not the way that I raised her. I felt like a total failure for a long time, and thought that I would have to answer to Hashem for being a terrible parent. I cried a LOT, and we had some pretty spectacular arguments.

I was lucky to have some very wise people help me through this, especially my rebbetzin. I've come to realize that after bas mitzva, everything is between her and Hashem. I gave her a very solid Orthodox upbringing, so if she wants to come back she'll know where she came from. I daven all the time for her, but it's out of my hands now.

Now, I am incredibly proud of who she is. I can appreciate her for exactly where she's holding, without having to compromise my own beliefs. We have a very good relationship, because she knows that I will love her no matter what.


Beautiful post. I wish I could like it twice.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:35 pm
Lady you are harsh. This is a convert who related her personal story of hardship and starting a new life. Breaking away from your parents is not easy, and cannot be properly expressed. She gave you the best answer, even ffbs don’t want to consider that question.
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amother
Copper


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:37 pm
Laiya wrote:
Beautiful post. I wish I could like it twice.


Sorry I meant to quote someone else
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 10:39 pm
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
You are then talking about different paths within Torah Judaism - not someone who decides to drop it all and become a Buddhist - correct?

Seeking - is great, if what is sought is within the confines of Torah - is that what you meant?


Well, I think that's probable, but not necessarily correct.
Some people need to go through buddhism to find their way. I dont believe a thinking person "drops it all," these choices are painful to make and considered carefully.

I dont believe its possible to dictate the parameters of someone else's search, certainly not when they reach adulthood. Lots of people may be satisfied within the confines of Torah. That is a charged statement, as there are 70 faces to Torah, and some are diametrically opposed to the one facing me. Some people do need to look outside the confines of Torah to answer their questions.
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amother
Jetblack


 

Post Tue, Jul 16 2019, 11:19 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Well, I think that's probable, but not necessarily correct.
Some people need to go through buddhism to find their way. I dont believe a thinking person "drops it all," these choices are painful to make and considered carefully.

I dont believe its possible to dictate the parameters of someone else's search, certainly not when they reach adulthood. Lots of people may be satisfied within the confines of Torah. That is a charged statement, as there are 70 faces to Torah, and some are diametrically opposed to the one facing me. Some people do need to look outside the confines of Torah to answer their questions.


I was just trying to understand what OP really agreeing to when Yellow wrote "I hope I gave them the tools to discern, question, seek and live authentically"...

Of course nobody can dictate to an adult how to live their lives. I just find it surprising that a frum mother would be totally accepting of her child going out to 'seek and live authentically' if that meant exploring other religions (or no religion) - which I thought was the topic of her post.
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IrenaFr




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:12 am
We started to keep Shabbat etc when are two older kids were teenagers. So they are not even OTD as they are secular from birth. I don’t have any choice but accept that and pray for them . And hope that my grandchildren will be Jews. And I know that everything can change at any time or age.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:28 am
I think that BTs not wanting kids to go OTD is about more than not wanting them to be sinners. We know what the world is all about and we don't want it to destroy our kids. We want them to be part of the caring community that we have seen in action recently. We want families that are on the same page religiously so that we can observe and celebrate together.
This doesn't mean that people whose kids choose a different path can't have a relationship with their families but I see that those who do go OTD are often eager to make a public statement, often at simchas and family events and don't care who they offend or embarrass. They are demonstrating the anger and sense of alienation that they have towards the frum community.
As has been spoken about here many times before, friendliness and acceptance goes a long way in helping to keep everyone in the fold. Finding that type of community can prevent loads of heartache.
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:34 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Your assessment is pretty accurate
And I didn’t expect you to defend an entire group. Just wanted to hear that there ARE BTs who are accepting of their kids choices.

I really don't understand why this is a BT/convert type of discussion. ANY frum women, regardless of her background, who believes that Torah is true and that following a Torah path is conducive to a life of growth and spirituality and eternal goodness in the next world, will understandably be devastated when her child chooses a different path. Otherwise, maybe Torah didn't mean that much to her anyways...
Of course, most decent emotionally healthy ppl will agree that this child should still be treated with love and acceptance, but that's a whole other discussion. The heartbreak would still be there.
NOT understanding their devastation... THAT confuses me. Even if they too chose a different path from their parents, clearly they went through the upheaval of changing their lives because they passionately believe Torah is the truth, so if anything, perhaps they would feel even MORE devastated than some FFB people who never examined their faith and beliefs in quite the same way.
op, I have a feeling sth deeper is bothering you, maybe at a subconscious level, but not sure what that is.
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amother
Violet


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2019, 9:47 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
I really don't understand why this is a BT/convert type of discussion. ANY frum women, regardless of her background, who believes that Torah is true and that following a Torah path is conducive to a life of growth and spirituality and eternal goodness in the next world, will understandably be devastated when her child chooses a different path. Otherwise, maybe Torah didn't mean that much to her anyways...
Of course, most decent emotionally healthy ppl will agree that this child should still be treated with love and acceptance, but that's a whole other discussion. The heartbreak would still be there.
NOT understanding their devastation... THAT confuses me. Even if they too chose a different path from their parents, clearly they went through the upheaval of changing their lives because they passionately believe Torah is the truth, so if anything, perhaps they would feel even MORE devastated than some FFB people who never examined their faith and beliefs in quite the same way.
op, I have a feeling sth deeper is bothering you, maybe at a subconscious level, but not sure what that is.


THIS! Exactly!! I don't know why on earth a BT/convert loses the 'right' to be upset if their kid goes OTD.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2019, 10:43 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
So for you it’s about respect and avoiding friction. I get that. I think a child who feels respected will give respect in return.
And this is exactly what this woman did. She made fun of her parents and family. Even picked up some of the racist attitude of the Frum community. It just really rubbed me the wrong way.


No. I didn't say that.

I said that if an OTD child bent over backwards to avoid friction it would not be as bad as if they didn't. It would still be terrible but then on a personal level the parents would have little reason to be upset.

And I said that there is a difference between secular parents who don't feel strongly about their lifestyle and beliefs and religious parents who do.

It is NEVER correct for a child who left their parents lifestyle to make fun of them.


Reading your posts I suspect that you are more upset becuase she said things you don't agree with than anything else.
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amother
Brunette


 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2019, 10:43 am
amother [ Jetblack ] wrote:
If you teach them 'this is for me' but it 'might not be for you' - you are providing a message that is not consistent with Orthodox Judaism.

We don't have a concept of "personal truth".


I'm the not the poster you are replying to here but it's not a case of teaching them "this is for me but it might not be for you."

We don't teach them that, but at some point they might come to that decision themselves even if we don't agree with it.

OP, first of all, it doesn't make sense to ask other converts what this convert meant. She only speaks for herself.

From my own perspective as a convert, I will raise my children in accordance with my beliefs as a Jew but I realise that they will eventually grow up and live their own lives as they see fit, and they will have my full support.
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urban gypsy




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 17 2019, 10:58 am
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Because obviously if you convert to Judaism it’s all logical and true but if you stop believing there must be some emotional reason. Then I said “you pretty much threw your parents beliefs in their face, yet you want their acceptance, would you be able to give this to your child?”


OP I know you're getting bashed but this is SUCH a fascinating topic!!!!
I think this attitude comes from 1) defining your identity in opposition to something else 2) seeing your children as an extension of yourself
I have been frum since 8th grade but I guess you can call me a BT
If my children chose to live a different Jewish life than me I would be completely accepting of that. If they chose to reject Judaism altogether I would be inwardly sad and disappointed but it would not change how I treat them. Once they are adults, I would fully respect their choices and I would expect that they accept my feelings and boundaries.
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