Less frum more frum

amother

Indigo

Thu, Jul 18 2019, 11:59 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

This. It's not all about clothing all the time.

And it's not just bein adam lechavero and bein adam lamakom, either.

Chani and Shani may wear heavy tights of whatever denier, but they don't fast on minor fast days, even when not nursing or pregnant. Meanwhile, Lani's community doesn't require tights, but expects women to fast. So who's frummer?

It's easier (lazier) to let dress code stand in for observance, but it's inaccurate.

Perhaps we can just stop playing the comparison frum game once and for all?

southernbubby

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 12:06 am

There are people who do mitzvahs but not consistently, such as those who identify as Orthodox but who will eat some foods prepared in non-kosher restaurants or not work on Shabbos but isn't that careful not to desecrate it at home. I would say that they are less frum than someone who observes consistently.

lcraighten

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 1:17 pm

People will always judge based on visuals! The reality is that we judge people on appearance, the important thing is to be aware that the judgement is superficial and there might be a whole different person behind the image you have built of them.

Being more frum/religious or less frum/religious is just a description. The issue is when we associate frumkeit/religiousity with culture.

For example: He doesn't wear a black hat, he must not be as frum as the man who wears the black hat. That is an incorrect application of religiousity

He is eating pork, he is less frum than the man who does not eat at McDonalds. That is correct

I know that even the second example is a judgmental thing, but I feel that it is at least a valid data point when talking about how religious/frum a person is. Frum does not mean "Yeshivish" or "Heimish" it should be used to mean religious.

paperflowers

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 3:39 pm

lcraighten wrote:

Very well said.

simcha2

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 4:18 pm

amother [ Slategray ] wrote:

That's the whole point. The problem is that not only do people compare, they compare almost exclusively based on visuals.

I think it's more than just visuals. People compare based on hashkafa (for which visuals are frequently a shorthand). As keym so eloquently pointed out above, the visuals can be wrong.

But at least on imamother, (and when I visit Lakewood), it's pretty clear that people use hashkafa to inform their feeling of "frummer".

I think if you ask most yeshivish people if they're "frummer" than mo people, I think they'll say yes. Regardless of actual practice. Because chumras are seen as "frummer". As an mo person who thinks that chumras are not indicative of frumkeit, you'll get a different answer.

amother

Mint

Fri, Jul 19 2019, 5:54 pm

simcha2 wrote:

I'm not in lkwd anymore, but we are still in kollel. I have family members in the yu world and in lkwd. My personal opinion is chumras do not necessarily make you frummer, but we do do them. If you are coming from a place of knowing and respecting halacha and choose to be meikal, I consider you equally frum as someone more machmir. My Lakewood family members will ask my yu smicha family members sheelos. If it's not coming from that place (not caring about halacha, just finding one limid zchus and choosing to go with it regardless of what the weight of halacha says or just choosing to not follow halacha) then I consider it less frum. There are mo people I have more respect for than orthoprax yeshivish people ( I call it yeshivish light).

There are rabbonim who are meikelim in lkwd too, you know. It's coming from a place of knowing and respecting halacha.