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Forum -> Parenting our children -> Our Challenging Children (gifted, ADHD, sensitive, defiant)
Normal sibling rivalry vs. scary violence
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top mom




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 3:14 am
Bigsis144, you are an incredibly strong and loving mother!
I admire your strength, courage and maturity in such a challenging situation.
I daven for you and your family every time I open this thread.
You have touched me
Hugs and loads of siyata dishmaya!


Last edited by top mom on Tue, Aug 27 2019, 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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imasinger




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 5:19 am
bigsis144 wrote:
I hugged him back gently until he let go. He looked back at his book. I said, “when you get out of control, you do bad things, but you are NOT a bad boy. What can I do to help you do the right thing, even when you’re frustrated?”


Hindsight is 20-20, but I have found it helpful in dealing with my own dysregulated kids to think about "coulda, shoulda, woulda", not for blame, but for ideas for the future, because the situations can come up again.

Here's what I've learned from the therapist parent coaching I've had:

Kids at this stage don't have the resources to figure out better answers. It might be more effective for you to reassure him that there ARE better answers, and, if you're up to it, offer a short list from which he needs to pick.

How might he respond to something like this?

"I can tell you had some really big feelings, and you needed to let them out somehow. You were mad because of ____ (whatever set him off -- not being allowed to go to bed later?), right? Hitting Ema wasn't the right way, but that doesn't mean you have no way to get rid of those big feelings. If I gave you a choice of hitting a pillow, or making a plan for something nice, to help you deal with not getting what you wanted before bed, which would you pick?"
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nanny24/7




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 5:33 am
top mom wrote:
Bigsis144, you are an incredibly strong and loving mother!
I'm admiring your strength, courage and maturity in such a challenging situation.
I daven for you and your family every time I open this thread.
You have touched me
Hugs and loads of siyata dishmaya!

OP I feel the same way.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 5:45 am
ftr actually I think the convo ended just when it needed to and with the messages necessary communicated.

clearly something is going on with him as you know, and I'm sure you have wondered how has this move affected him and his issues.

hugs and hatzlocha
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behappy2




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 9:42 am
This stood out to me that he thought you would hit him back. Sometimes kids do these things bec they don't know another way to connect and getting a reaction feels like connection. There is also the obvious manipulation but that could also be wanting connection too. This doesn't at all mean you dont give him enough. I also noticed that you wrote it got worse since you moved and had a baby. These are also times you have less time for him or he needs more reassurance and he is more stressed out. My son is the same age and also had similar issues when younger. I know you said you already read a lot of books and I'm in no way an expert on YOUR CHILD. I do want to share what worked for me as something you could look into if you'd like. For me the big turnaround was dropping punishments and control. I also read the book playful parenting which helped me tune in better to my child and I was able to give him more security with some of the ideas used from the book. In general my motto is his emotional health over disciplining him and he has become so so so so much easier. Feel free to reach out to me. I just want to reiterate that this worked for me and every child is different. It felt right and the excessive discipline just riled him up more. He was fighting me more. He wet his pants in public on purpose (age 8). He tantrumed on the floor of walmart(8 years old) he used to throw blocks at me and cut my clothing (age 5).

Sending you a big hug! Remember to take care of yourself and get support. All kids want to be good and you WILL find the key to his heart. Hang in there.

He is also my oldest. I know how much harder that makes it. I only felt validated that something was really wrong when my daughter under him was born and started maturing. The differences were very obvious.
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amother
Aubergine


 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 10:34 am
I'm going to preface this with I do not have the same extremes you have.

My oldest now a teen had major anger issues when he was younger. I would straight jacket him with my body many times. I found a common denominator to his triggers. I found most of the times that he acted out violently were when he didn't eat well, was tired or bored/without structure for an extended period of time (think school vacation week, end of yom tov vacation, etc).

You mentioned his limited diet. Is he getting enough food from those "food groups" or just taking one cup of milk and one frozen pretzel. It may not be enough. Think how you feel on a fast day. Grumpy. A kid like that takes grumpy to another level.

That said, you mentioned you live in Maryland. There is a frum referral program here called Relief (https://reliefhelp.org) . I contacted them after one incident went too far with my son. They helped me find a therapist that specialized in his anger and violent outbursts. B"H he's doing much better now. They helped him learn to respond appropriately and control his outbursts. I won't say he never acts out, but he has said, "Ema I'm leaving the room now and not finishing this conversation because I'm getting angry and know where that leads."
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mha3484




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 10:49 am
I wonder if Aubergine is on to something. Have you looked into this? https://www.nationaleatingdiso.....arfid I saw this in another parenting group recently and had never heard of it before.

Food and sleep make a major difference in my kids mood and behavior. Enough that I will let my kid go late to school if hes eating breakfast nicely or had a hard time sleeping the night before. Better he be late and behave then on time and Hangry and dysregulated.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 11:01 am
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
he has said, "Ema I'm leaving the room now and not finishing this conversation because I'm getting angry and know where that leads."


Awwww! I got chills reading that. You must be so proud to see what a huge step that is for him, to self regulate and use his words in such a responsible way.

I swear, sometimes I think we get the most nachas out of the hardest kids.

(On a related note, my mom always said "Do you know why G-d made 3 year olds so cute? So they'll live to be 4.") LOL

I was talking to my 16yo daughter the other day, and she told me that she was feeling a bit depressed this summer. She said "I've realized that I do better with structure and boundaries. Having too much freedom gives me anxiety." Surprised Could this possible be the same kid who has had me tearing my hair out for the past 4 years?

OP, it can get better. It will get better. You are such a fighter! Your son is lucky to have you, and I think that deep down he knows it.

I'm not going to diagnose your son, but this book has helped me understand DD better, and she sees a lot of herself in here. Maybe it will help you, too. https://humansystem.files.word.....e.pdf
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Stars




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 11:21 am
FF I love all your posts in this thread.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 4:39 pm
amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:
I'm going to preface this with I do not have the same extremes you have.

My oldest now a teen had major anger issues when he was younger. I would straight jacket him with my body many times. I found a common denominator to his triggers. I found most of the times that he acted out violently were when he didn't eat well, was tired or bored/without structure for an extended period of time (think school vacation week, end of yom tov vacation, etc).

You mentioned his limited diet. Is he getting enough food from those "food groups" or just taking one cup of milk and one frozen pretzel. It may not be enough. Think how you feel on a fast day. Grumpy. A kid like that takes grumpy to another level.

That said, you mentioned you live in Maryland. There is a frum referral program here called Relief (https://reliefhelp.org) . I contacted them after one incident went too far with my son. They helped me find a therapist that specialized in his anger and violent outbursts. B"H he's doing much better now. They helped him learn to respond appropriately and control his outbursts. I won't say he never acts out, but he has said, "Ema I'm leaving the room now and not finishing this conversation because I'm getting angry and know where that leads."


Funny, I was thinking along these lines when I read op abt his limited diet and that her Ds also skips lunch. I just didn’t have the guts to comment. Also abt the strep, pandas thing. I have a little boy with recurring strep. Literally once in 3weeks (any advice?) He presents with no standard symptoms but just turns into a MONSTER. This has been going on since he’s young ( 1 yr old) and the eureka moment came after I saw a pattern of strep cultures coming back positive when it was just taken as a precautionary measure since I told the pediatrician that something is WRONG with the child. I even landed in the Er once for this. Had I not insisted on culturing him I would’ve never known and who knows if he wouldn’t have gotten pandas. As of now we know to be very careful with this.
As a result of the recurring strep, he developed crazy eating habits. I can count on one hand what this child eats and even though I send food along to school he sometimes skips lunch. When that happens I can hear the rumbling of his footsteps from a mile away and I slap down food on the table before he even enters the house.
I just wanted to point this out as something to be taken into account ALONGSIDE the psych eval/help.
Wishing you loads of hatzluche in getting to the bottom of this situation. You are truly one amazing ema.
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amother
Wine


 

Post Wed, Jul 24 2019, 5:14 pm
I wanted to add to my previous post that my son is doing well at school too and even though he is only 5, he’s holding it together there. Also, if another child in the house has strep (without us being aware of it yet) the monster in him is set off.
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 07 2019, 12:24 pm
BH it's been a relatively "quiet" few weeks since the last incident... "quiet" meaning no knives or slapping me or insane tantrums, just the incessant name-calling and screaming and me having to hold the baby nonstop to keep her away from his yelling and physical roughness.

Been busy with DS6, who, with much deliberation, we are not going to be sending to the Jewish day school in the end. It rips my kishkes out, but upon speaking with (more) therapists and the school guidance counselor, DS9 needs school to be "his space" where he can continue to feel differentiated from his brother, who may not be obviously "special needs" but is definitely atypical and "weird".

DS6 will continue to get help with social and behavioral skills in public school that he couldn't get at the Jewish school, and DS9 won't be continuously triggered by his brother (whether he "should" be bothered by his brother, or feel that DS6 is a reflection on him in any way is irrelevant -- these are DS9's feelings at the moment, and we have to deal with it). I doubt that DS9 would take it out on his brother at school, but it would absolutely make for a more explosive home environment.

I think I'm doing the right thing, but I still feel so down.
Wow, parenting is hard.

We have meetings with pediatricians before the school year starts to look at medical reasons, and meetings with therapists to work on behavior plans, psychological testing, etc.

This is legit a full time job.
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nanny24/7




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 07 2019, 1:04 pm
Wow bigsis144!!
It sounds like you are juggling so many things at a time and still being so proactive in getting your children the best services and supports they need! Of course it's a full time job!!
Glad to hear the really extreme stuff like knives have quieted down a bit.
Hang in there!!
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dancingqueen




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 07 2019, 4:05 pm
Wow bigsis you have a LOT going on. Hug

How was your older sons appointment? Do you think that’s helping?
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bigsis144




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Aug 27 2019, 2:12 pm
DS6 has been expressing increasingly detailed negative thoughts - "I'm worth less than a speck of dust", "what's the point of being alive", "I want to tie myself to train tracks so I'll be dead", "nothing ever goes right for me, I mess up everything I touch"... it hurts so much to hear him talk this way!

So I gotta get that kid into therapy ASAP too. He's only 6 1/2!!! BH no actual self-harm, but the way DS9 treats him certainly isn't helping DS6's self-image or coping mechanisms... DS6 is very upset about returning to public school. He wants to "go to a Jewish school with Jewish friends" but is afraid that if he goes to the same school as DS9, DS9 and his friends will pick on him.

DS9 met with psychiatrist who didn't immediately diagnose anything; I'm filling out Vanderbilt scales and having teachers from last year fill them out as well. This psychiatrist, again, says it seems like an adjustment issue rather than medical because DS9 can keep it together at school.

School starts at the end of the week...
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amother
Powderblue


 

Post Tue, Aug 27 2019, 2:46 pm
bigsis144 wrote:
DS6 has been expressing increasingly detailed negative thoughts - "I'm worth less than a speck of dust", "what's the point of being alive", "I want to tie myself to train tracks so I'll be dead", "nothing ever goes right for me, I mess up everything I touch"... it hurts so much to hear him talk this way!

So I gotta get that kid into therapy ASAP too. He's only 6 1/2!!! BH no actual self-harm, but the way DS9 treats him certainly isn't helping DS6's self-image or coping mechanisms... DS6 is very upset about returning to public school. He wants to "go to a Jewish school with Jewish friends" but is afraid that if he goes to the same school as DS9, DS9 and his friends will pick on him.

DS9 met with psychiatrist who didn't immediately diagnose anything; I'm filling out Vanderbilt scales and having teachers from last year fill them out as well. This psychiatrist, again, says it seems like an adjustment issue rather than medical because DS9 can keep it together at school.

School starts at the end of the week...


Is this a quality psychiatrist? A specialist in child psychiatry who has an excellent reputation? Because that is what is needed

And I'm so sorry to hear about your younger son. It is really sad to hear how much he is suffering, and at such a young age
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amother
Cerulean


 

Post Tue, Aug 27 2019, 8:07 pm
bigsis144 wrote:
DS6 has been expressing increasingly detailed negative thoughts - "I'm worth less than a speck of dust", "what's the point of being alive", "I want to tie myself to train tracks so I'll be dead", "nothing ever goes right for me, I mess up everything I touch"... it hurts so much to hear him talk this way!

So I gotta get that kid into therapy ASAP too. He's only 6 1/2!!! BH no actual self-harm, but the way DS9 treats him certainly isn't helping DS6's self-image or coping mechanisms... DS6 is very upset about returning to public school. He wants to "go to a Jewish school with Jewish friends" but is afraid that if he goes to the same school as DS9, DS9 and his friends will pick on him.

DS9 met with psychiatrist who didn't immediately diagnose anything; I'm filling out Vanderbilt scales and having teachers from last year fill them out as well. This psychiatrist, again, says it seems like an adjustment issue rather than medical because DS9 can keep it together at school.

School starts at the end of the week...


You sound like you're doing everything to protect both of your sons. It's not an easy situation and you seem like a very attentive mom! Be proud of yourself!

Can I just point out re the bolded - my daughter has PANS and is extremely challenging at home (aka a holy terror) but she holds it together beautifully at school, literally a model student in every area, academics, social, respectful to authority. It's not a contradiction.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Aug 28 2019, 5:40 am
I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but has DS9 been to a pediatric neurologist? An MRI might be in order, to see if there's anything organic going on.

A SPECT scan would be extremely helpful, but you have to push very hard to get one, and not many hospitals have the equipment. You usually have to go to a high end teaching hospital to get it.
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