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Frum women in Israel forced to take off their head coverings
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 6:29 am
Anyone else shocked about this?

Background: About a week ago 3 nursery workers were arrested on suspicion of abuse in a nursery in Tekoa (Workers were from Beitar). A coworker was upset at them and made allegations, but through out the interrogation it's coming out that perhaps although she made up the allegations, there was abuse going on nevertheless.

2 women were frum and were forced to take off their head coverings and skirts to enter a prison.

https://www.kikar.co.il/abroad/324815.html

What are your thoughts on this?
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roses




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 6:32 am
My thoughts are that it is horrible that children were abused by these women, and I don't sympathize with them at all. I care more about the children and their suffering than about these women's head coverings.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 6:38 am
I hear, but two wrongs don't make a right.
Just because someone did something wrong, (and it's not known how much they did or if they did anything) doesn't mean you should publicly strip them of their dignity in that type of matter.

I don't know, show their faces, names, and stuff.
But don't make them do a public aveirah.
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Rappel




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 6:52 am
I assume you're referring to the strip search?

When one is entered into jail or prison, one must strip, and demonstrate to a same-gender officer that one is not carrying anything secretly. Ones private clothing are held by the facility, and one is given uniforms - usually including loose pants - to wear. There are usually multiples, though, so if they wanted to fashion a headcovering or a skirt out of a t-shirt, I don't see why they can't.
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DrMom




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 7:45 am
Talk about a misleading thread title...
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 7:55 am
roses wrote:
My thoughts are that it is horrible that children were abused by these women, and I don't sympathize with them at all. I care more about the children and their suffering than about these women's head coverings.


They were suspected; they haven’t been tried or convicted, and they may be innocent. If they are convicted, even convicted felons have certain civil rights, freedom to practice their religion being one of them.

How will you recompense these women for their distress if they are acquitted?
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roses




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 7:57 am
Here's the thing- if you don't want to wear prison garb, don't commit crimes. Prisons have uniforms for prisoners for safety reasons. Once you become a criminal, you lose the right to make personal clothing choices. If someone is that concerned about their tznius clothing choices, they can choose to not abuse children. Once they become a criminal, their clothing choices are no longer their own. They are prisoners, and they get to wear what prisoners wear, rightly so
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groovy1224




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 8:00 am
roses wrote:
My thoughts are that it is horrible that children were abused by these women, and I don't sympathize with them at all. I care more about the children and their suffering than about these women's head coverings.


That's a normal emotional response, but freedom of religion should still apply to suspected and convicted criminals. Why aren't they allowed to wear headscarves in prison (I didn't read the article)
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roses




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 8:01 am
zaq wrote:
They were suspected; they haven’t been tried or convicted, and they may be innocent. If they are convicted, even convicted felons have certain civil rights, freedom to practice their religion being one of them.

How will you recompense these women for their distress if they are acquitted?


People don't get charged without significant reasons for being charged. And these women's clothing are not the highest priority. The safety of the children come first. And part of having a justice system is jailing people who are charged with a crime. And wearing prison garb is part of being in jail. It's that simple.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 8:05 am
groovy1224 wrote:
That's a normal emotional response, but freedom of religion should still apply to suspected and convicted criminals. Why aren't they allowed to wear headscarves in prison (I didn't read the article)


They could be hiding contraband like razor blades in their headscarves. In the US the male prisoners have to hold their hand on their head in place of yamukahs when being transported.
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BadTichelDay




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 8:15 am
I read only part of the article, no time. But Neveh Tirtza is an all-women prison. That means that only female fellow prisoners are going to see them and prison staff in direct contact with them is also female. Halachically, a woman is permitted to be seen by other women without head covering and in trousers. (Or without clothes at all and just a towel or half in the water, think mikveh).
And once they have been strip searched and put into prison uniform, as Rappel posted, they probably could form a makeshift head covering from spare uniform parts.

Edit: not quite the same, but I've been taken into a side room at the airport and been asked to take off my headcovering in front of female security staff. I just did it, saw no need to make a fuss.
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zaq




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 9:27 am
roses wrote:
People don't get charged without significant reasons for being charged. And these women's clothing are not the highest priority. The safety of the children come first. And part of having a justice system is jailing people who are charged with a crime. And wearing prison garb is part of being in jail. It's that simple.


May I ask how forcing women to uncover their heads jeopardizes the children under their care?

Innocent people do get arrested, btw. If these women are found guilty after a fair trial, fine, let them rot in jail. They still have the right to observe their religion. Would you suggest that they also be forced to eat tref and be frisked by male guards?
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 9:39 am
Isn't it way worse in a jail outside Israel? At least they get kosher food.
I don't see the big deal either. Only women, so no aveira regarding tzinus. If they're so careful that no person ever gets to see them uncovered, then they should have equally stayed away from a crime/sin. They'll get their clothes back when they leave. The aveira would be the crime committed as well as a chillul Hashem even without the crime. They must have done questionable things in order to be admitted. If they are innocent, let this be a kapara for klal yisrael. There obviously was a reason why Hashem had this happen to them. I don't see it as shocking or bad.
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Amarante




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:16 am
It doesn't appear that any religious rights were violated since it was an all woman's prison.

Therefore in weighing the needs of society versus the rights of prisoners, the outcome was one that did not violate the religious rights of the women. They might not have liked it but that is different from a specific religious precept being violated like being forced to eat non-kosher food. As others have posted, you cannot run a prison safely if prisoners have the ability to wear items that could conceal contraband of any kind including dangerous items. Should a prisoner be allowed to wear a burka or a face veil?

While innocent people are sometimes arrested since one has a trial in which that is determined (presuming there isn't a guilty plea), arrests are not arbitrary as there is some threshold which needs to be met before one is arrested and prisoned.


Last edited by Amarante on Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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Iymnok




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:22 am
Why don’t the Israeli women’s prisons have pretieds?
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mandksima




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:29 am
Iymnok wrote:
Why don’t the Israeli women’s prisons have pretieds?


They might have something but I think this article just showcased that they were made to take off their own. If they can wear in the army, they can probably wear something in jail, just once they've been searched and proven to have nothing on them.
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LovesHashem




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:37 am
roses wrote:
Here's the thing- if you don't want to wear prison garb, don't commit crimes. Prisons have uniforms for prisoners for safety reasons. Once you become a criminal, you lose the right to make personal clothing choices. If someone is that concerned about their tznius clothing choices, they can choose to not abuse children. Once they become a criminal, their clothing choices are no longer their own. They are prisoners, and they get to wear what prisoners wear, rightly so


But they haven't proved they were abusive in any case.
So if anyone makes up an allegation and you go to a prison for a few days till they work it all out you lose your rights to freedom or religion?
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Blessing1




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:56 am
They weren't forced to anything. Everyone needs to follow protocol, for their own safety. No one is exempt.
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33055




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:57 am
mandksima wrote:
They might have something but I think this article just showcased that they were made to take off their own. If they can wear in the army, they can probably wear something in jail, just once they've been searched and proven to have nothing on them.


They can't wear head coverings in jail for the reason I mentioned. It's for the safety of the guards and other prisoners. It is also for their own protection because they might be bullied to carry things for other prisoners.

I don't know how female prisons work in the US. I am pretty sure they have males working there.
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rivkam




 
 
    
 

Post Tue, Jul 23 2019, 10:58 am
LovesHashem wrote:
But they haven't proved they were abusive in any case.
So if anyone makes up an allegation and you go to a prison for a few days till they work it all out you lose your rights to freedom or religion?


They need significant evidence to arrest someone and keep them in jail. Unfortunately it is likely that these woman were abusive.
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