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Here we go again.... Day camp tips!!!
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amother
Smokey


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 1:24 pm
amother [ cornflower ] wrote:
Does anyone here know what is normal in a lakewood backyard camp? My 2 and 4 year old each have 3 counselors...


I was told 10 to 20 per counselor and 5 to 10 for jc
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 1:26 pm
mig100 wrote:


I still remember my first year as staff in day camp I had an extrememly difficult bunk, not the most competent co-counselours and came home every day compeltely exhasuted and stressed.

they also were not the type to tip- so I got barely a handful of tips.
Smile


I always found that the sweetest, easiest, most polite kids were the best tippers and the challenges were the worst.
I always feel almost guilty taking the generous tip from the kids who brought it, because that was always the one who was such a pleasure, where as often the ones who couldn't tip enough for all the work I put in would practically stiff. My friends also had that experience.
Anyone else?
Any theories?
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amother
Salmon


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 1:35 pm
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
I always found that the sweetest, easiest, most polite kids were the best tippers and the challenges were the worst.
I always feel almost guilty taking the generous tip from the kids who brought it, because that was always the one who was such a pleasure, where as often the ones who couldn't tip enough for all the work I put in would practically stiff. My friends also had that experience.
Anyone else?
Any theories?


It's a funny thing here.

I happen to have one child who has a somewhat more high-strung, sensitive personality.

And here's where I feel conflicted about the tipping.

With my easygoing, happy-go-lucky, cheering and participating type of kids, they always had a good relationship with the counselors, always had a great summer in daycamp, etc..and I always sent a tip to show my appreciation. Thank you so much for choosing my child to be camper of the summer yet another time...

Now that I have a child who is somewhat more challenging...I find that there are counselors who are really, really nice to her - and I tip generously when that is the case...and counselors who can't be bothered, find her to be just a pain in the neck, and sometimes are really not nice to her. In such situations, am I supposed to tip generously because my kid isn't so easy? What about the counselor's end of the deal, is there no responsibility to be nice to a camper, even if she wasn't born with that perfect-camper personality, and is more kvetchy and difficult? Is the expectation such that our kids are supposed to be easy and yet we tip the counselor for not-much-effort?

This year my daughter did not have a great first-half to the summer. Her counselor was downright not nice to my daughter (we had a certain very-not-nice-or-appropriate incident). The tip is not mandatory. I'm trying to decide if I should or not.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 1:43 pm
amother [ Salmon ] wrote:
It's a funny thing here.

I happen to have one child who has a somewhat more high-strung, sensitive personality.

And here's where I feel conflicted about the tipping.

With my easygoing, happy-go-lucky, cheering and participating type of kids, they always had a good relationship with the counselors, always had a great summer in daycamp, etc..and I always sent a tip to show my appreciation. Thank you so much for choosing my child to be camper of the summer yet another time...

Now that I have a child who is somewhat more challenging...I find that there are counselors who are really, really nice to her - and I tip generously when that is the case...and counselors who can't be bothered, find her to be just a pain in the neck, and sometimes are really not nice to her. In such situations, am I supposed to tip generously because my kid isn't so easy? What about the counselor's end of the deal, is there no responsibility to be nice to a camper, even if she wasn't born with that perfect-camper personality, and is more kvetchy and difficult? Is the expectation such that our kids are supposed to be easy and yet we tip the counselor for not-much-effort?

This year my daughter did not have a great first-half to the summer. Her counselor was downright not nice to my daughter (we had a certain very-not-nice-or-appropriate incident). The tip is not mandatory. I'm trying to decide if I should or not.

Let me redefine challenge as chutzpadick, demanding, rude, entitled.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 2:33 pm
amother [ Goldenrod ] wrote:
I always found that the sweetest, easiest, most polite kids were the best tippers and the challenges were the worst.
I always feel almost guilty taking the generous tip from the kids who brought it, because that was always the one who was such a pleasure, where as often the ones who couldn't tip enough for all the work I put in would practically stiff. My friends also had that experience.
Anyone else?
Any theories?


I would assume that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the parents are chutzpadick, challenging and ungrateful.

People who have empathy generally raise empathetic children and part of being empathic is realizing that those in service positions who rely on tips rely on tips. It's a cliche that service people are generally good tippers because they realize what it's like.

I also find that often (but not obviously of course) those who come from more modest backgrounds and then become successful tend to be more empathetic to those who need help.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 3:41 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
I would assume that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the parents are chutzpadick, challenging and ungrateful.

People who have empathy generally raise empathetic children and part of being empathic is realizing that those in service positions who rely on tips rely on tips. It's a cliche that service people are generally good tippers because they realize what it's like.

I also find that often (but not obviously of course) those who come from more modest backgrounds and then become successful tend to be more empathetic to those who need help.


I disagree.

Often, a kid may get like this because of issues specific to them. They are likely to be a handful at home too, and the parents may be overwhelmed. Maybe the kid is getting interventions at home that cost a lot. Or more likely, the parents completely forget to tip at all because they are overwhelmed. Or they do tip and give it to the kid, who doesn't give it in. Related to this are families for whom this kid is a symptom of a difficult family situation overall. And there may be more than one kid like that. So they forget, or run out of money.
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 3:45 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
I would assume that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the parents are chutzpadick, challenging and ungrateful.

People who have empathy generally raise empathetic children and part of being empathic is realizing that those in service positions who rely on tips rely on tips. It's a cliche that service people are generally good tippers because they realize what it's like.

I also find that often (but not obviously of course) those who come from more modest backgrounds and then become successful tend to be more empathetic to those who need help.


Yikes. I know a number of parents who are truly wonderful, kind people- and they still have a child or more than one who is super challenging behavior wise. There are so many reasons a child could be acting out. Please don't judge parents!

(I'm not even talking about myself. I was blessed by Hashem with children who are little role models of behavior at school and at camp. But I acknowledge that it's from Hashem, and I've seen up close how much parents can and cannot control regarding their kids' behavior.)
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 3:45 pm
amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:
I disagree.

Often, a kid may get like this because of issues specific to them. They are likely to be a handful at home too, and the parents may be overwhelmed. Maybe the kid is getting interventions at home that cost a lot. Or more likely, the parents completely forget to tip at all because they are overwhelmed. Or they do tip and give it to the kid, who doesn't give it in. Related to this are families for whom this kid is a symptom of a difficult family situation overall. And there may be more than one kid like that. So they forget, or run out of money.


If you know that your child is more difficult, then how does a mentsch not tip knowing that the counselor has probably had to deal with more issues than a nicely behaved child would cause?

Ok if finances prevent but in that case thoughtful parents would do something to acknowledge it with a card or special thanks of some kind.
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amother
Seashell


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 3:49 pm
amother [ Wheat ] wrote:
Yikes. I know a number of parents who are truly wonderful, kind people- and they still have a child or more than one who is super challenging behavior wise. There are so many reasons a child could be acting out. Please don't judge parents!

(I'm not even talking about myself. I was blessed by Hashem with children who are little role models of behavior at school and at camp. But I acknowledge that it's from Hashem, and I've seen up close how much parents can and cannot control regarding their kids' behavior.)


The question was not why great parents can have difficult children.

The question was why there was a correlation between non tippers and difficult children.

There would be difficult children whose parents tipped as my post indicated.

I was presuming entitled chitzpadock children and not those who had some kind of real psychological issue.
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imokay




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 3:58 pm
I'm not really sure why year after year, parents are "surprised" with the fact that there are tips.
At this point, I view it as an implicit part of my camp contract.
Yes, the tips are technically optional. But they really aren't.
The salary for the hard working staff reflects this and parents know this and should budget accordingly, if at all possible, to comply.
Perhaps, the ones who are conflicted about giving have not been counselors themselves or have not had children work as daycamp staff.
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amother
Turquoise


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 4:18 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
If you know that your child is more difficult, then how does a mentsch not tip knowing that the counselor has probably had to deal with more issues than a nicely behaved child would cause?

Ok if finances prevent but in that case thoughtful parents would do something to acknowledge it with a card or special thanks of some kind.


A mentsch plans to tip. And then the night she is planning to do it, another difficult kid has a meltdown and another kid's therapist calls and tells her their insurance has started denying coverage and bedtime is a nightmare. So maybe she forgets, and maybe she stays up late and makes the envelopes and by morning all the kids are running late and crazy and she has them in the car and on the way when she remembers that she left the envelopes at home. Sending them to the counselors is really hard after camp is over, and it doesn't happen. And yes, maybe her house is that crazy and maybe she also has some adhd like or kids and maybe both.
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 4:20 pm
amother [ Wheat ] wrote:
I don't think anyone disagrees that counselors deserve to be paid fairly for their work. What mystifies is why that fair pay can't come out of the crazy high prices I'm already paying for camp. Camp directors need to work on budgeting differently if they truly can't figure out how to pay the counselors more.


They can figure it out. They don't want it to come out of the camp tuition, because of pesky little things like taxes and payroll taxes. So it would cost them $800 or whatever to pay each counselor another $500.

Someone mentioned sleepaway camp. Counselors have to get your kids up in the morning. Get them to daven, shower, dress, get to activities, eat something healthy (yes, the counselors have to watch that), get to bed, get their clothes to the laundry. 6 days a week, from wakeup until they're all in bed. For the princely sum of $500 -- less their own mandatory tip to the waiters, and less the cost of baggage transport. Yes, those counselors deserve a tip.
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amother
Dodgerblue


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 4:33 pm
imokay wrote:
I'm not really sure why year after year, parents are "surprised" with the fact that there are tips.
At this point, I view it as an implicit part of my camp contract.
Yes, the tips are technically optional. But they really aren't.
The salary for the hard working staff reflects this and parents know this and should budget accordingly, if at all possible, to comply.
Perhaps, the ones who are conflicted about giving have not been counselors themselves or have not had children work as daycamp staff.


It’s not a surprise but for me people like me who’s husband is out of a job right now it’s hard. When I get the note and I’m worrying about paying rent and then just get more upset bec I already shelled out 1500 per kid for camp. Also I was a counselor many years if a third of the bunk tipped it was a lot
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seeker




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 5:40 pm
I have had both ways as someone on the receiving end of tips from difficult kids. I've had parents who tip generously because they are sweet people who happened to have the kid with the ADHD, biting phase, etc. And by generously that could mean a heartfelt note when there are money issues. And then there are kids who just have a very difficult attitude where they don't need to answer to anyone and the world owes them everything they want, and their parents are the same way always complaining, and then they tip the bare minimum even though their kids are coming to camp with expensive clothes and accessories. Basically you can't generalize but these things happen.
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amother
Floralwhite


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 6:30 pm
I see both sides of the coin on this topic.

My husband is a Rebbe in a day camp. Many camps cheshbon the salary of counselors and Rebbeim factoring in that they'll get tips at the end of the summer. Believe me, he's working like a dog (it's not easy to encourage students to sit in one spot and learn in day camp) for a degrading salary. It's embarrassing how much he's getting paid. He's knows Rebbeim in other camps and the salary is around the same across the board for rebbeim in camp. He's getting much less than he normally gets during the year and we really rely on the tips to make up for the salary. Here we are at the end of the half, he has a bunch of campers leaving and very few of them tipped.

On the other hand, my kids are in day camp and when it comes time to tipping, I'm writing out checks left and right. It's been adding up and it does get ridiculous. I wish the tipping amounts were lower, especially with multiple kids in camp, it's a fortune.

At the end of the day, the camps should pay the rebbeim and counselors more - the proper amount of what they deserve for the job they're doing and the parents should be required to tip because it's the right thing to do, but tip much less than what they're asking.
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amother
Teal


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 6:53 pm
If tipping is required then it isnt a tip. A tip is voluntary.
The way they are doing it, they are just trying to avoid taxes.
I work full time to be able to pay for rent, food, and other basics for my kids. My husband is unemployed so money is tight. I found the cheapest option for camp and then here come mandatory fees and tips. Sorry- I pay taxes on my wages. So should everyone else. I don't have the money!
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Optione




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 7:00 pm
I both received tips and gave them this summer. One thing I'll say- every single counselor came back to me when they saw me at dismissal and thanked me for the tip and the thoughtful/funny/sweet... NOTE that I sent along with the tip. Tips are not mandatory. They are appreciated. Some years I give and some years I don't. When I can, I do. When I can't, I don't.
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amother
Tangerine


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 7:10 pm
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
Do you live in Brooklyn?
If so, bear in mind that many girls working this year in NYC are earning an abysmal paycheck, and relying on tips.
Much more so than in prior years when there were many more teens on the YC program, and 14-15 year olds were eligible for the working program.

I do agree that the day camps should be paying these teens a more reasonable salary.

ETA-It would be nice if the DC's and sleepaway camps in NYC would implement some kind of system where tips are per camper and would be allocated only to the girls who are not collecting their salary from YC.

Yep. My 14 y old chose working in camp for $250-300 for the summer instead of the new YC educational program. She loves working with kids and is a very responsible and hard worker. I warned her not to rely on tips because I was that mother who couldn't afford the suggested tips and gave much less.
(I'm really curious how this new YC program went this year, among the frum population and citywide. So far I haven't heard of anyone who chose YC over working)
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amother
Oak


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 7:12 pm
amother [ Seashell ] wrote:
I would assume that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the parents are chutzpadick, challenging and ungrateful.



Or maybe the poor parents don't have a single spare dollar on hand this week?
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amother
Teal


 

Post Thu, Jul 25 2019, 7:13 pm
Can someone explain the new youth corps? What changed?
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