Here we go again.... Day camp tips!!!

amother

Salmon

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 8:10 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

I would assume that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree and the parents are chutzpadick, challenging and ungrateful.

People who have empathy generally raise empathetic children and part of being empathic is realizing that those in service positions who rely on tips rely on tips. It's a cliche that service people are generally good tippers because they realize what it's like.

I also find that often (but not obviously of course) those who come from more modest backgrounds and then become successful tend to be more empathetic to those who need help.

Your assumptions is what make raising a challenging child to be even more challenging. And hurtful.

Like I said, I have children who are sweet, empathetic, responsible, etc...as I am generally myself. And yet Hashem gave me a child with a different type of personality and nature. Perhaps Hashem wanted me to know what it's like to raise such a child.

My child tends to be a reflection of the attitude of the person. When she has a counselor who is sweet and empathetic, she tends to be motivated to behave likewise.
Believe it or not, there are counselors who are also entitled, demanding, and uncaring (as my older, role-model kids attest to). When she gets a counselor like that, it does not bring out the best in her.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 8:38 pm

amother [ Teal ] wrote:

Can someone explain the new youth corps? What changed?

I don't know if I can explain it well but there is no longer any working option for the 14-15 year age group.

They need to attend an educational workshop for a few hours a day.
They get paid for it but the workshops are run by the city which means girls and boys are not segregated.
They are also required to go on some trips.

For the older teens, the amount of teens selected in the YC lottery was reduced due to the increase in the minimum wage.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 10:38 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

The only way that camps would raise salaries so that tips could be cut out is 1) take less of a profit
Or
2) raise the total camp fee
I don't see #1 happening, and for #2 the parents pay anyway.

No.
There are other options.
The chasidish day camps all turn a profit for a much lower fee.
You could cut out some trips and have cheaper activities.

amother

Jade

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 10:53 pm

Of course they could do that but when they are competing for campers, they want to have exciting attractions to pull people in.
Chassidish camps are different because the people who send there are likely to anyway even if they are not as exciting and offering the the "best" activities or trips. I don't know what the expected tip situation is in a chassidish camp, though.
I was just trying to explain why I don't think things are changing anytime soon. Camps exist to make a profit. Maybe this wasn't the case in the 50s or 60s, but it certainly is now.

seeker

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:01 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

The only way that camps would raise salaries so that tips could be cut out is 1) take less of a profit
Or
2) raise the total camp fee
I don't see #1 happening, and for #2 the parents pay anyway.

Not the only way.
There is a tremendous amount wasted on ridiculous things that become standards. I have a dream that maybe we can somehow turn back the clock on these things, though I'm a little despairing as I see the trend continue. I'm talking about trips increasing to every week if not more, while the major trips get more major. I'm talking about themes that involve a full change of decor every week or maybe even every day, along with "tchotchkes" and prizes to go with the breakout. I'm talking about expensive art and craft materials (when I was in day camp, the vast majority of crafts involved creative uses for things like paper, popsicle sticks, and toilet-paper rolls, complemented by glitter, pompoms, and pipe cleaners. And we spent a LOT of time doing lanyards, of which one set of the big rolls could last 10 years.) I think it's even more of an issue with sleepaway camps but the day camps try hard to keep up so kids won't feel like they're so much "nebbier" than sleepaway camps.

I would LOVE to have a back-to-basics camp option for my kids and I bet plenty of parents would. Yet I feel like I must be wrong because I only see camps going farther over the top, claiming this is what people want and they would never get campers otherwise. I think a back-to-basics camp could market strengths like ruach, nature, and other qualities that are more meaningful than giving out cutesy prizes all the time and having a hot air balloon break out color war.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:12 pm

Yes.
Seeker explained it better than me.

There were two day camps that tried to top the competition by marketing themselves as “talent camps” that are now out of business.

I don’t know who decided to up the ante on the trips and activities.
I really don’t believe that the pressure is coming from the majority of the parents.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:13 pm

amother [ Jade ] wrote:

The only way that camps would raise salaries so that tips could be cut out is 1) take less of a profit
Or
2) raise the total camp fee
I don't see #1 happening, and for #2 the parents pay anyway.

I could be wrong but as far as I remember I send to Shevach day camp in Lakewood, and tips are not suggested or requested. It is a wonderful, professionally run camp with all the bells and whistles, and I don’t remember ever receiving a note with even the suggestion of a tip. I don’t know what they pay the counselors but it seems they figure it out, without relying on the parents to supplement.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:19 pm

The only way to get the camps to raise salaries is if parents would collaborate and refuse to allow their daughters to work unless salaries are raised.

As long as there are an adequate number of girls willing to work for a dollar an hour there will be no salary raises in the near future.

amother

Pink

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:28 pm

[quote="amother [ Apricot ]"]They can figure it out. They don't want it to come out of the camp tuition, because of pesky little things like taxes and payroll taxes. So it would cost them $800 or whatever to pay each counselor another $500.

Someone mentioned sleepaway camp. Counselors have to get your kids up in the morning. Get them to daven, shower, dress, get to activities, eat something healthy (yes, the counselors have to watch that), get to bed, get their clothes to the laundry. 6 days a week, from wakeup until they're all in bed. For the princely sum of $500 -- less their own mandatory tip to the waiters, and less the cost of baggage transport. Yes, those counselors deserve a tip.[/quote]

Um, what? So because they want to pay less taxes we all have to pay a ridiculously high amount of tips on top of the already crazy camp prices???

I’m sorry, but some of these directors have a lot of explaining to do. And as someone mentioned upthread, day camp is not a luxury for many (most?) of us. I’m feeling just a little bit exploited right now...

imokay

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:44 pm

Again, everyone knows that tips will be requested at the end, it's not a new invention, not a new custom, not a surprise. (just look at thread title! If it's "here we go again", why didn't you prepare yourself in advance?!)
If you don't want to give, that's your prerogative, but you know that you are short changing the staff.
For better or for worse, that is the way the camp system works, and everyone knows that going in. It really has become standard.
No one is forcing anyone to send children to daycamp. You can arrange group childcare, hire a mother's helper, share a private babysitter or watch your own children if you have that ability.
Please tip the counselors to the best of your ability. And if you can't, then write a nice note and own your reality. But why point fingers, complain, act surprised or outraged? I just don't understand these reactions.

amother

Tangerine

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:00 am

amother [ Orchid ] wrote:

COJO of Flatbush ran the program and there was at least one girls only group there. The workshops are run by the groups who have these contracts with the city (like COJO).

amother

Aqua

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:15 am

What about if your kid is generally the teacher’s pet type, super popular because of her good middos and upbeat personality, and an all around super yummy kid (BH BH BH) and the counselor spent the month schmoozing with the JC and telling your kid to go away whenever she had a question or requested a referee for a machanayim disagreement or someone ‘big’ to help turn the jump rope? Should you tip and send a nasty note that they were the worst counselor your kid has ever had or just not tip and keep your mouth (or pen) closed?