Toddlers, elbows & halacha

amother

Seashell

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:07 pm

sky wrote:

Some groups hold men can’t see parts of a girl from younger then 12. Just like negia (between 3-11) and yichud (3 yrs) is younger then 12. But depends on the crowd.
I’ll allow my daughter until 7 to go into the men’s side. But in a Chasidishe shul only until 3. Because they are careful from that she.

During davening, not as a general rule...

LovesHashem

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:24 pm

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Sky, even if some hold that men can't see girls uncovered from younger than 12, the halacha is still from bas mitzva. It's just a chumra that these men hold by.

It's less about the men, it's more about telling a girl who is 12 to change her mode of dress will be very hard for her. These days 12 is a teenager and you cannot force them to make changes like that at that age.

sky

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:31 pm

amother [ Seashell ] wrote:

During davening, not as a general rule...

To be honest. I’m not an expert in any of this. A man is forbidden from praying while looking at Erva. I guess it depends at what age and what body parts you define that as.
(Really if I send a 3+ yr old girl into very yeshivish minyan by BMG I’ll only do it if her elbows are covered because some members are careful. )

amother

Seashell

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:43 pm

sky wrote:

Right, I was clarifying that there's no halacha that a man can't look at a seven year old walking down the street wearing short sleeves. Depending who he follows, it could be a problem for her to be sitting in the men's section during davening while wearing short sleeves.

amother

Gray

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:43 pm

My daughter just turned three and we're starting with tznius now.
Chassiddish, sleeves and socks at 3, so no barefoot or sleeveless. She does get upset if I send her to daycamp in ankle socks since most of the girls in her bunk are older than her and are in knee socks or tights.

She did get sent out of shul on shabbos for wearing socks though.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:47 pm

amother [ Gray ] wrote:

Not to derail, but just three and at day camp and bunks?

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:52 pm

Age 3 we start everything- elbows covered, skirts past the knee, and knee socks (or tights).

But most ppl aren’t as careful at that age if clothes are running a little small etc.

We are chabad.

aliavi

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:53 pm

If the girl is old enough to be potty trained and sent out for school or group, she can begin to learn tznuis. I don’t teach it at that age but only buy tznuis clothes. I have leggings or shorts on under skirts or dresses from infant. I don’t buy short sleeved onesies or for toddler but will allow a short sleeve shirt up for preschool age up to school age if she wants the top and feels upset by not having it. Tznuis pjs from 3.

ETA: I also don’t buy open toe shoes starting at 3 and rarely otherwise.

little neshamala

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:57 pm

Yeshivsh, in monsey.

Our Rav told us until age 6 anything goes, including tank tops etc. The goal is by age 9 she should (he stressed happily) be dressing according to halacha. Between 6 and 9 transition (no more capped sleeves, sleeves should be longer even if there still technically not covering elbow etc)

He kept stressing to do it gradually as we see our her mature, and never to force it if shes unhappy, with the goal being that by 9 she should be covering

amother

Gray

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:01 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

Not to derail, but just three and at day camp and bunks?

Why not? That's what it's called. They cater the program to the pre-school kids. They have morahs and 'bunks'

dancingqueen

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 9:59 am

aliavi wrote:

What are tznius pjs for a 3 year old?

I just wonder how you teach a toddler that they have to be fully covered without teaching them that their bodies are shameful. Do boys in the same communities have to dress like adult men from age 3 too?

amother

Crimson

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 10:31 am

dancingqueen wrote:

My little boys love wearing a white shirt on shabbos to be just like Tatty.

I don't understand how a little girl would get the message that her body is shameful unless that's what her mother tells her. She's dressing like mommy, she's a big girl that already dresses tznius and she's so lucky!

amother

Plum

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 10:43 am

Boys don't have hilchos tzenuis, so they dress like men from bar Mitzva.
The only way a girl would think her body is shameful, is if her mom/teacher puts it down in that way. You teach & explain to them in an age appropriate & exciting manner.

amother

Brown

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 10:48 am

little neshamala wrote:

I'm curious how do the teenagers in your community dress? I sometimes wonder if it's hard to only start really dressing tzniusdikly by 9 and then go in to puberty not long after that... my 9 year old is already wearing bralettes!

amother

Plum

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 10:53 am

I live in a yeshivish area in monsey and no 9 year old is in short sleeves and socks. Many are even in tights by 4/5. Majority are in knee socks and long sleeves by 6/7.
I wonder which area little neshamala lives in because it's really not accepted for yeshivish girls to wear short sleeves till 9. Not in school and not at home.

amother

Brown

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 10:57 am

dancing queen- my dd was wearing just her sports bra in the bathroom and commented how nice she looked in it. I agreed with her and told her she has a beautiful body but that as a frum girl we don't go around dressed like that. She said I know with a smile and that was it. It doesn't have to be body shaming.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 11:16 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

BH they overall do dress tzniusdikly. Keep in mind its not like they were dressing however they liked till age 9 and then boom, out come all the rules. They were dressing how they liked till age 6, then sloooowly covered more and more til age 9. These guidelines were given with that exact purpose in mind-to have an easy transition.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 11:20 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Monsey is hujongous. There are tons and tons and tons of communities.
Just like you are confused about what community I live in (im sorry I cant say,ive revealed way too much personal info on this site to risk being figured out), im so confused about what community you live in. "Many are even in tights by 4/5"? I dont know yeshivish people whose children wear tights. The only people I know whose kids wear tights are chassidish/heimish chassidish...so that just further demonstrates how diverse the communities on monsey are.
My yeshivish community will see some girls past 6 in sleeves right above their elbow, others wear long sleeves. Some girls wear knee socks, others wear short socks. No one wears tights.