Really want to understand... Lace front shaitels and halacha

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amother

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:38 pm

So many people have these georgous lace front wigs that literally look like it's growing out of their scalp, it's truly amazing!!
I've had a few situations where I was sure a person doesn't cover her hair, but then found out it was a wig ..
So my question is, is the halacha of covering your hair fulfilled just by covering your hair fully? Or does it have to be obvious for others??
I am asking respectfully and don't want anyone to feel bad.

amother

Bronze

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:39 pm

There are different opinions about that.

Hey, it's halacha. Did you really expect there to be an absolute consensus?

pesek zman

Thu, Jul 25 2019, 11:40 pm

To me,’just because a Shaitel looks like it’s growing out of her headnit doesn’t mean it looks like hair. Most Shaitel’s look $10000 x better thst most people’s hair. The length, shine, fullness. The styling. I can see Shaitel’s a mile away.

amother

Slateblue

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:01 am

I believe the halacha has nothing to do with looking like hair and being super natural or not. The halacha is that once a woman has s** she needs to cover her hair.

Rappel

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:04 am

Rav Ovadiah agrees with you, OP.

Lucky for me, since I love styling different mitpachot!

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:05 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

I believe the halacha has nothing to do with looking like hair and being super natural or not. The halacha is that once a woman has s** she needs to cover her hair.

This is not actually accurate according to most poskim.

FranticFrummie

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:11 am

I've wondered about this as well. There's the issue of maris ayin, making someone think that something is allowed when it's not.

It's like drinking water from a Burger King cup. It's not technically wrong. The question is, are you responsible if someone else draws the wrong conclusion about the way they perceive your actions?

Another example, your shul holds that a woman should not show even a tefach of hair. The rebbetzin is wearing a scarf will full bangs showing in the front. It might be her hair, or it might be clip in fake hair. Does she have a responsibility to the congregation to make sure that nobody misinterprets what they see?

I've never gotten a clear answer on this question, so if anyone knows of a ruling, I'd be interested in hearing it.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:13 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

This is not actually accurate according to most poskim.

My very yeshivish right wing Rav (big posek) explained to me that if you hold according to Rav Moshe Feinstein z"tl, like he and many other Rabannim do, the only reason for covering is because after marriage a womans hair takes on a sensual ruach that is for her husband alone, and that sensual ruach must be covered. By anything. A snood, a towel, a pot, someone elses hair, whatever. It does not need to be a sign that the hair is covered, and may look as natural as anything, but must still be tzanuah-just like any unmarried woman's hair must look tzanuah. But the natural looking aspect has nothing to do with the hair covering.

Again, not my words, and I know other Rabannim hold differently, just like they hold differently about how to kasher an oven between fleishig and milchig, and what makes you nida.

But my Rav is definitely not a posek who is controversial or anything. Very right wing standard yeshivish.

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:21 am

little neshamala wrote:

I have to find it, but someone quoted from Igros Moshe a while back and I checked it. He said that it should be noticeable to other women that it's a wig. It doesn't seem that R' Moshe held that it could be as natural as anything.

little neshamala

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:23 am

amother [ Mauve ] wrote:

I dont claim to be an expert on Rav Moshe.
These were my Rav's exact words. Whether he's basing them entirely on Rav Moshe, or also his own psak, I dont know. But I trust him.

amother

Mauve

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 12:39 am

little neshamala wrote:

I dont claim to be an expert on Rav Moshe.
These were my Rav's exact words. Whether he's basing them entirely on Rav Moshe, or also his own psak, I dont know. But I trust him.

Ok, I just looked it up ( the powers of the internet!). I think someone misquoted, because the way I just read it was exactly what you said. So I was wrong, and I quoted wrong. And your Rav is right!

I also heard that someone quoted Rav Yaakov Kamenetzky who said that any shaitel is ok.

However, just want to point out that there are some poskim who hold that it should be obvious that it's a wig, and I guess we follow that psak.

amother

Azure

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 1:34 am

In my community we do not hold that it needs to be obvious, we hold that the majority of the head must be covered. I wear a fall with my hair pulled in. 90% of what you see is a shaitel but it looks like my hair because the front is my own hair. I actually show less hair than most people show with a tichel.

amother

Firebrick

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 1:38 am

If you know someone well enough to know she is married, you also know whether or not her real hair is covered, even if her wig is realistic. If the wig is realistic and she is a stranger, you don't know whether or not she is obligated to cover her hair, so it is not maris ayin.

amother

Seafoam

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 1:44 am

amother [ Slateblue ] wrote:

I believe the halacha has nothing to do with looking like hair and being super natural or not. The halacha is that once a woman has s** she needs to cover her hair.

The halacha as mainstream accepted, is once a woman marries. Not once she loses her virginity.
There are lots of non-virgins walking amongst us who dont cover (yes, even among the frum)

amother

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 1:59 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

Um, not true, I had a few situations where I knew the woman was married, but she is more on the modern side, so I thought maybe she doesn't cover her hair etc..

Iymnok

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:23 am

The halacha for a married woman to cover is satisfied with this style. If it is tznius or not you will have to decide. IMO it makes the hairline look natural, but the back will still look wiggy. I guess a $4k may not...

amother

Powderblue

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 2:40 am

Whenever someone says they "REALLY want to understand...." re tznius.......

I take out the popcorn.

Punch

amother

Orange

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 4:56 am

"Really want to understand" is code for "I look down on those who do X or Y, and one part of me wants to be vindicated in this because I feel good about myself that I am better than that, and another part of me wants a Dan Lekaf Zechus so I can work on not looking down on people who do this."

OP, as others have pointed out, there are halachic approaches that state that the fact that one's natural hair is covered, and the beauty or appropriateness of such covering, are two separate issues.

So if someone is covering her hair, but doing so with a floor-length blond curly wig with woven-in flashing lights and hot pink highlights, she is simultaneously covering her hair 100% al pi Torah, and quite possibly violating tznius in her choice of headgear.

Although there are some authorities that prefer a "wiggy" looking wig, that is far from universal. Some Rabbinic authorities state that a beautiful and natural wig is is PREFERRED, because that makes it easier to cover one's own hair 100%. (As a married woman's hair is ervah, many halachic opinions hold that none of that hair should be exposed.)

IOW, whether or not you know it's a wig, she is doing the mitzvah of covering her hair properly.

Some would say that a wig should look "wiggy," but it isn't clear who that is intended for. For most gentiles, for example, a wig is so far removed from their reality that they wouldn't dream that even the most obvious wigs are not someone's natural [ugly] hair. Among frum women, there are better and worse wig-spotters, and I don't know which halachic authorities are qualified to decide whose obliviousness is beyond the pale.

If you want to get a lace-front wig for yourself, OP, I'm sure you'll look great! (And I'll probably know that it's not your own hair.)

Rappel

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 6:05 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

As far as the YY goes: the tefach is so that any wisps or neck hairs aren't a problem. It's not meant as a definition to allow us to expose a bunch of our hair on purpose

I've asked many people for a source for the bangs, peyot, etc. styles, and I haven't yet heard one. I'm starting to think it's a social practice only.

I have also seen people put on clip-on bangs, or fake buns in the back of a mitpachot, but it makes me faintly nauseated - why wear a fashion statement which makes it look like you're not following halacha? It like wearing a nude shell. In my head, sheitels fall into the same category, though I'm glad people are working hard to follow their kav. I just can't help feeling shocked when I see one. I'm very embarrassed to admit this, since I hate that I'm judging others, but it's kind of like seeing someone walk into the makolet and they forgot to put on a shirt that day. "Whoops, look away! Don't embarrass them! Wait -- no. They are wearing a shirt. They did that on purpose??? Why?"

flmommy

Fri, Jul 26 2019, 6:49 am

Its commendable amother mauve that you clarified you were mistaken. So rare on Imamother.

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