How hard are you obligated to work to pay full tuition?

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 7:22 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

Is this hypothetical, or do you know an actual case of parents who demand to be part of the school and refuse to pay their way, yet take their child on vacation and give him an extravagant BM? I mean, I'm sure it's possible that this family exists somewhere. But it's obviously not a normal situation. The child probably should be considered a real chesed if that's how his parents behave in public.

The 10 kid co-op school is hypothetical but I have seen, heard and read about people who play games with the tuition committee.

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 7:59 pm

amother [ Pink ] wrote:

Ok, well your example sounds very far removed from reality. Anyway, isn't that the job of the tuition committee?

People have attempted co-op schools but it requires a large amount of the parents time to offset the costs. I used that as an example because the tuition committee isn't obligated to believe anything and a co-op probably doesn't have to let people in who simply want to take advantage.
If people get breaks, discounts, and scholarships, at least show some gratitude because nobody is entitled to it except possibly orphans, the sick, etc.
Back in the shtetel, the community provided it to poor boys ages 6 through 9. After that, they had to pay.

amother

Cyan

Thu, Aug 01 2019, 8:03 pm

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Yes, I have heard that the trend in the young crowd is to expect to learn forever- without of course sacrificing the tiniest bit of gashmiyus Smile

. Ok, it sounds like I am a bit older than you, so you'll let me know how that goes a few years down the line Smile

I'm not in kollel anymore, so that ship has already sailed for me. It wasn't about level of gashmiyus, but rather that one specific thing happened that was very much out of our control. We couldn't have predicted or planned for it.

But yes, I'll report back in a few years when people's husbands are sneaking out of yeshiva mid-seder to go tutor... Wink

amother

Brown

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 12:58 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Unfortunately quality full time daycare is very hard to find, at least that has been my experience.

Unless you receive vouchers it is extremely difficult to find good day care and basically impossible to find it legal in Brooklyn at least. I find myself disgusted by the situation.

I find most of this thread extremely judgmental when it comes to comments about SAHMs. It is pretty gross coming from frum women. I have to think maybe women are resentful because they romanticize staying home themselves? Mom guilt? Who knows.

I'm mostly a SAHM, not by choice. I think I would be much more sane and capable as a mother if I was working full or part time. Homemaking just isnt my thing. That said, right now I have a toddler who literally has me running around all day. I know I work harder than 95% of people working in offices day in and out and the only appreciation I get is from my husband with no external markers of success.

My field, if I was working, everything I made would basically be going to childcare, so on that end alone the money wouldn't be worth it. But I might do it just to get out of the house if only I could find a daycare option that really met the needs of my child.

I don't pay tuition yet but if I did need to, I would have not one ounce of guilt about asking for a subsidy if we needed it. A lot of people forget in this discussion, eventually we will all have to answer to HKBH whether we did our best providing for our families. It isnt about the tuition committee or what your neighbor or even imamother thinks. In the next world, if not this one, those who did their best will see the rewards and those who didn't will have to answer for it.

amother

Denim

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 6:27 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

It's not so simple:

https://www.ou.org/life/parent.....vitz/

Not a fan of either article. Unhappy mom = not healthy environment for children. There are SAHM and working moms that are unhappy and having negative impacts at home. But all moms are stressed and stretched thin regardless of what they do.

I make 105K and live out of town. If I had 7 to 8 kids, it would not make sense for me to work full time. It would make more sense to work in the school system. But, I am young and my salary is going up so I'm not likely to get to a point that I should leave my job. My home is healthy and very happy. My children are thriving and happy. They are growing up respecting the idea of helping oneself which in today's age which does not respect this idea, is an incredible gift. They know I love my job and help people. They know I love them more and I'll take off to chaperone a trip if I can manage it with my schedule. They are secure in my love.

Make your own decisions about life but know that a tuition reduction is tzedakah. Gd makes poor people and rich people. He makes poor take and rich give. We try to be givers. But there are times when everyone needs to take. It isn't bad to have a reduction when you need it regardless of working status.

But don't make the argument that it's impossible for 2 full time workers to have a happy home or that our children suffer. You are then telling your children that there is one derech which is never a good thing. For all you know, your child could work full time too.

The main thing is that everyone does their best and gives their children love and stability. And this can be provided by a working or stay at home mom.

southernbubby

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 6:57 am

amother [ Brown ] wrote:

People are supposed to make normal efforts to support themselves and are not obligated to go beyond normal efforts.
However, schools in cities with multiple yeshivas and day schools often don't view themselves as personally obligated to educate every child whose parents apply. They are probably within their halachic rights to show preferential treatment to those families who are willing or able to pay more.
I have seen where families here in Monsey have struggled to get the kids into schools.
IOW, parents can't expect the community to look out for their kids unless they live OOT where there are not many schools to choose from and the community is small enough that everyone's means to pay are known and obvious. The town's only day school will probably not exclude those who can't pay but may expect a SAHM to offset the cost of tuition by volunteering in the school.

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 8:18 am

amother [ Denim ] wrote:

I don't think you can argue with the studies and facts that Dr. Pelcovitz cites in his article. He wasn't stating his opinion- he was stating facts based on research.

That said, everyone is an individual and it certainly can work out well for some, at least that is MY opinion. What I have a problem with is REQUIRING all women to work full time before receiving scholarships. Besides for the faulty financial reasoning (not everyone comes home with enough money after taxes and childcare to make it worthwhile), it is also a fact that not all women can do it, physically, emotionally, or both.

I dont think anyones making the argument that it is impossible for both parents to work full time and have healthy, happy, well adjusted children, just that it's very hard. And not everyone is capable of making it work. The parents may not have enough physical or emotional reserves, and/or they may not be able to get quality full time child care which would be cheap enough to make their working pay financially.

As for scholarships being tzedakah, Rabbanim say not. I was just listening to Rabbi Feurst who said that getting scholarships is absolutely not taking tzedakah because educating children is a communal obligation. I have heard other Rabbanim say this as well.

southernbubby

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 8:26 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Whether or not it is taking tzedukah is not as important as making sure that the money exists to run the school. I have seen schools close temporarily or permanently due to lack of funds. By communal responsibility, does that mean that only the wealthy have the responsibility?

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 8:31 am

southernbubby wrote:

Wether or not it is taking tzedukah is not as important as making sure that the money exists to run the school. I have seen schools close temporarily or permanently due to lack of funds. By communal responsibility, does that mean that only the wealthy have the responsibility?

That's what I have heard Rabbanim say. But not everyone listens to the Rabbanim...

Interesting that you have seen schools close for lack of funds. The only schools I have seen do that were those that couldn't get big enough to have enough students to make it work...

I think it's a very important distinction to say that It's not tzedakah to take scholarships. In my opinion.

southernbubby

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 8:44 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

Some of my grandchildren go to a very large school that goes on strike every year or two due to unpaid teachers. I have also seen smaller schools fail and shut down permanently. One yeshiva here almost shut down but the funds were raised to save it.
I think that it depends on the community. If the parent body was made up primarily of struggling parents, it would be the height of chutzpah to ask for a scholarship and then outspend the struggling parents. OTOH, if there are plenty of wealthy people who donate, nobody should feel guilty about living a normal life after taking scholarships and even going on vacation.

teachkids

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 8:48 am

I think there's also a difference in what the sahm are doing with their time. If they have a kid or two home then it might totally make sense to keep them home. If they're still sending their kids to daycare/a babysitter (and I'm not referring to the 2 hour a day 2 year old programs that just give socialization and time to run errands) so they can go out for coffee and lunch or even use their time going to shiurim or volunteering for x and y, maybe their time could be used better either to go to work to pay for tuition or to volunteer in the school.

(Of course barring extreme circumstances like a sick or otherwise needy family member)

Last edited by teachkids on Fri, Aug 02 2019, 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Gold

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 8:49 am

amother [ Turquoise ] wrote:

If the communal obligation falls only on the wealthy, do you see any moral obligation for the non-wealthy to contribute to tuition at all? What would the source of that obligation be if the wealthy are obligated to pay for all the education and nobody else is obligated?

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Aug 02 2019, 2:25 pm

There is no way to answer this question, without using extreme exaggerations to illustrate points.

Within the realm of average people, making similar, middle class salaries, the range of variables is too broad to make any type of rules, except in the broadest sense.

Ie, if someone is getting tuition assistance, but is able to pay for an extravagant European vacation for the family, they are not being honest.

But other issues are not clear at all. My friend was getting assistance because the bills were too high and they couldn't cover them at the end of the month. So were ours, but we were using credit cards and carrying substantial debt to make ends meet and pay the tuition. Who is right?