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Tragedy in Sahara sams
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Cheshire cat




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:47 am
nchr wrote:
Multiple strains of diarrhea from viruses are constantly picked up and found at waterparks. I'm surprised you're not aware of that. It's a very common occurence.



After weeks of feeling really unwell, my DS finally got a diagnosis today. He has cryptosporidium, a pool borne parasite.
Contagion occurs through fecal matter in pools, lakes, etc.
Chlorine treatment in pools is ineffective for this
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Classicookie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 10:01 am
naomi2 wrote:
How did 700 children and dozens of staff members not see a body under water??

Working in a day camp part of staff training was pool safty one thing they showed was surveillance video of a child who was taken out of the water and put on the Side by a counselor. You then see the boy going under the water . they put a red circle on the boy who was under the water. You see the counselor swim right over him you see the kids swimming over him at the same time we have a timer showing how long he was under . You see all the lifeguards sitting there not noticing the child. It was really nerve-wracking to watch but it's a huge wake of call you have to be super vigilant watching a pool. part of pool safety is making sure your kids understand how to act around the pool and know how to swim. I find the kids who are not exposed to pools are hard to watch around pools and don't understand safety.
Also the worst game to play is who can stay under the water longest because then you don't know if someone's really having trouble or winning.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 10:37 am
naomi2 wrote:
How did 700 children and dozens of staff members not see a body under water??


Well, not all of them were at that particular pool.

And, particularly when a pool is crowded, its not as easy as people think to see any particular kid.

Based on the video footage from Philadelphia stations, which showed a roped off pool area, this was not a water slide, log flume, wave pool, or anything else like that. It was a pool, with several lap lanes and an open area. Its impossible to tell for sure, but given the steps, and given that lap pools are often pretty shallow, it didn't look all that deep. The poor child probably felt safe there.

Again, I don't blame the counselors, who are probably pretty devastated just about now. I blame the water park.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 10:40 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Well, not all of them were at that particular pool.

And, particularly when a pool is crowded, its not as easy as people think to see any particular kid.

Based on the video footage from Philadelphia stations, which showed a roped off pool area, this was not a water slide, log flume, wave pool, or anything else like that. It was a pool, with several lap lanes and an open area. Its impossible to tell for sure, but given the steps, and given that lap pools are often pretty shallow, it didn't look all that deep. The poor child probably felt safe there.

Again, I don't blame the counselors, who are probably pretty devastated just about now. I blame the water park.


You can place blame on a lot more than that. The water park, the lifeguards, the counselors, the parents who do not properly educate their children about swimming and swimming safety, etc. Even under the best circumstances, people, good swimmers, still drown.

Here are some stats from the CDC in regard to unintentional drowning:
1. From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day. An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.

2.About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger.For every child who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries.

3. More than 50% of drowning victims treated in emergency departments (EDs) require hospitalization or transfer for further care (compared with a hospitalization rate of about 6% for all unintentional injuries).These nonfatal drowning injuries can cause severe brain damage that may result in long-term disabilities such as memory problems, learning disabilities, and permanent loss of basic functioning (e.g., permanent vegetative state).
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happy_tobeme




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 10:48 am
SixOfWands wrote:
Well, not all of them were at that particular pool.

And, particularly when a pool is crowded, its not as easy as people think to see any particular kid.

Based on the video footage from Philadelphia stations, which showed a roped off pool area, this was not a water slide, log flume, wave pool, or anything else like that. It was a pool, with several lap lanes and an open area. Its impossible to tell for sure, but given the steps, and given that lap pools are often pretty shallow, it didn't look all that deep. The poor child probably felt safe there.

Again, I don't blame the counselors, who are probably pretty devastated just about now. I blame the water park.


I blame the camp. Per the FAQs on the water parks website:
Quote:
Children under 13 years of age are required to be accompanied by an adult for safety and supervision. Sahara Sam’s Oasis is concerned for the welfare of all younger children.


The camp is responsible for supervising all the children that they bring. They cannot rely on the lifeguards for babysitting all the children.
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 10:50 am
nchr wrote:
You can place blame on a lot more than that. The water park, the lifeguards, the counselors, the parents who do not properly educate their children about swimming and swimming safety, etc. Even under the best circumstances, people, good swimmers, still drown.

Here are some stats from the CDC in regard to unintentional drowning:
1. From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States — about ten deaths per day. An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.

2.About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger.For every child who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries.

3. More than 50% of drowning victims treated in emergency departments (EDs) require hospitalization or transfer for further care (compared with a hospitalization rate of about 6% for all unintentional injuries).These nonfatal drowning injuries can cause severe brain damage that may result in long-term disabilities such as memory problems, learning disabilities, and permanent loss of basic functioning (e.g., permanent vegetative state).


I spend a good amount of time at a pool, and the laxity of parents drives me crazy.

I see kids barely out of diapers in the pool alone, with their parents a good 20 yards away, without a straight line of vision. Sure, there are lifeguards. But the lifeguard cannot watch your kid to the exclusion of everyone else.

I've seen parents argue with lifeguards about why their precious snowflake should be allowed to use the honking big ring in the pool. The problem is that kids can be UNDER that honking big ring, and there would be no way for the lifeguard to see them. Use a noodle.

I actually had a parent throw a kid into the water; the kid barely missed me. Really?

Lifeguards are your last resort at a pool. You need to watch your kids. Arms' length until they can swim well; close enough to watch after that.

My kids are/were counselors, and they need to be in the water with their kids every day.

All of that said, counselors really can't do that job at a water park. The kids aren't all in one place, and the counselors aren't really trained for it. The water park is supposed to have sufficient lifeguards for that, who are trained to know what to look for.
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OutATowner




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 10:55 am
happy_tobeme wrote:
The camp is responsible for supervising all the children that they bring. They cannot rely on the lifeguards for babysitting all the children.

Didn't follow the whole thread, but the park knows that the camp is not coming with one adult per child. They allowed a certain number of camps to book it at the same time. I don't think playing the blame game is helpful, unless it is to prevent future tragedies. But, if a park allows a certain number of campers with the understanding that it is not a 1:1 ratio, why should the camp question it?
Signed, a neurotic mother who would not let her kid go to a water park either way.
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karat




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:01 am
OutATowner wrote:
Didn't follow the whole thread, but the park knows that the camp is not coming with one adult per child. They allowed a certain number of camps to book it at the same time. I don't think playing the blame game is helpful, unless it is to prevent future tragedies. But, if a park allows a certain number of campers with the understanding that it is not a 1:1 ratio, why should the camp question it?
Signed, a neurotic mother who would not let her kid go to a water park either way.


Because the parks may compromise on safety in order to earn a higher profit.
They know that there is risk involved.
Hence the requirement of signing waivers.
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dankbar




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:02 am
The park probably didnt know how many kids will be there. One daycamp rents out entire place & then they share with other daycamps, to lower the costs
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SixOfWands




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:06 am
dankbar wrote:
The park probably didnt know how many kids will be there. One daycamp rents out entire place & then they share with other daycamps, to lower the costs


That's not true.

Camps rent out water parks all the time. Frum camp. Secular camps. Christian camps. They know its not only one camp at a time.

Besides, do you think they're idiots. "Gee, you said 100 kids were coming, but we seem to have 700 here. Oh well."
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SleepingBeauty




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:07 am
How would you educate a younger child regarding water safety in a water park?
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gamanit




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:11 am
dankbar wrote:
The park probably didnt know how many kids will be there. One daycamp rents out entire place & then they share with other daycamps, to lower the costs


When my camp used to rent out a park along with another camp they told the park how many kids they'd be bringing and got an exact amount of tickets for each kid to have one. They told us do not lose your ticket or else you will be forced to wait by the buses for the duration of the trip along with one staff member who was anyhow waiting with the buses to coordinate meals. Every ticket got checked on the way into the park. Renting a park is not a free for all. Parks have liability insurance and need to follow strict protocol.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:14 am
SleepingBeauty wrote:
How would you educate a younger child regarding water safety in a water park?


1. A child who is not a proficient swimmer should never go to a water park. This is a danger to the child and to others around him/her.
2. A child who cannot know to tell a counselor if his buddy is missing should never go on any trip.
3. A child should know never to push someone else under water, jump near others, hold breath as part of contests, etc. If I cannot trust my child to behave, he is not going anywhere. Your child also has to be trusted to always follow the rules. If you have a child who has experienced disrespect issues in school, don't send him to a waterpark with camp. You can take him yourself when you can supervise, but too much can go wrong in water (I.e. going down the slide before your turn, running instead of walking, etc.)
4. I start teaching my kids to swim before they are a year old. I would still not send a child in elementary school to a water park without DH tagging along and I am not overprotective.

Also, keep in mind, good swimmers can also ch'v drown.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:20 am
I don’t think anyone specific is to blame here. Though I am sure many people are holding the blame and feeling broken.

My son was there - it wasn’t dark when it happened. He said that some kids were getting dressed inside some were still outside - they stagger the coming and going etc because it’s a lot of camps.

The parks are equipped for this. 800 sounds like a lot but it’s a hugge Park. They are not stupid they know who is coming and going.

I believe we can learn a lesson from everything and here we have to learn to reevaluate our safety processes for camps. Buddy system, counselor checks etc. etc. I am sure these counselors are super vigilant and careful but **** happens and this happened.
Accidents are accidents.

I am heartbroken. My heart hurts and I can’t stop hugging my son but yes as they left the place eventually close to 11pm they told all the boys that the boy is in hospital and is ok. Then they updated all the parents with Chai Lifeline hotline information. They were extremely efficient and the whole situation was managed very. Very. Well.

I personally called my sons madrichim to thank them today. For keeping him safe. They are all broken up because it could have happened to anyone. A slip, a fall, a missing goggles, a dare, we’ll never know. It could have happened to anyone.

Hashem should send the family Nechama and bracha and we should only hear of simchas.

As a post note: there are emergency swimming training classes for kids which I personally plan on signing my kids up for. Of course it doesn’t mean it’ll save them chv but it’s hishtadlus. It’s something I can do to help.
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HonesttoGod




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:24 am
nchr wrote:
1. A child who is not a proficient swimmer should never go to a water park. This is a danger to the child and to others around him/her.
2. A child who cannot know to tell a counselor if his buddy is missing should never go on any trip.
3. A child should know never to push someone else under water, jump near others, hold breath as part of contests, etc. If I cannot trust my child to behave, he is not going anywhere. Your child also has to be trusted to always follow the rules. If you have a child who has experienced disrespect issues in school, don't send him to a waterpark with camp. You can take him yourself when you can supervise, but too much can go wrong in water (I.e. going down the slide before your turn, running instead of walking, etc.)
4. I start teaching my kids to swim before they are a year old. I would still not send a child in elementary school to a water park without DH tagging along and I am not overprotective.

Also, keep in mind, good swimmers can also ch'v drown.


Personally I’m more afraid of my kid in the camp pool and not knowing how to swim than a water park. A kid who can’t swim shouldn’t be allowed in certain areas of a water park but water parks are generally safer spaces for those who can’t swim. Even adults. There are plenty water activities that have ankle height water and that’s it.

I also wish I could helicopter my son to trips etc but I trust the daycamp. They have many many counselors and staff and BH he is in safe hands. Like I posted above , this could have happened to an efficient swimmer, stuff happens we can’t prevent and it makes it so much harder especially as a mom.
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Jewishfoodie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:32 am
This is heartbreaking. But it was nothing more than a g'zeira from Hashem. I'm sure u all know the story of the Malach Hamaves complaining to Hashem that everyone will hate him and blame him. And the answer he got was, nobody will ever blame you. They'll blame the food, the car, the weather, the bullet, the pool, the counselors..

If we have to analyze this, I feel we should analyze why Hashem is sending us these messages. And how could we improve so that these g'zeiros stop.

Had there even been 2 counselors per child, there is only one way to stop a g'zeira. Tefillah.

Sorry. But there's no room, no corner, no 'safe space' that Hashem can't get to.

May Hashem bring a full nechama to the family and bring Moshiach so that our pain and suffering ends.

No blame except on ourselves plz.

No, I'm not a representative of Sahara Sams. I'm not a counselor and nobody paid me to say this.
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gamanit




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:35 am
Jewishfoodie wrote:
This is heartbreaking. But it was nothing more than a g'zeira from Hashem. I'm sure u all know the story of the Malach Hamaves complaining to Hashem that everyone will hate him and blame him. And the answer he got was, nobody will ever blame you. They'll blame the food, the car, the weather, the bullet, the pool, the counselors..

If we have to analyze this, I feel we should analyze why Hashem is sending us these messages. And how could we improve so that these g'zeiros stop.

Had there even been 2 counselors per child, there is only one way to stop a g'zeira. Tefillah.

Sorry. But there's no room, no corner, no 'safe space' that Hashem can't get to.

May Hashem bring a full nechama to the family and bring Moshiach so that our pain and suffering ends.

No blame except on ourselves plz.

No, I'm not a representative of Sahara Sams. I'm not a counselor and nobody paid me to say this.


Beautiful post. Just wanted to correct you; there are three things: teshuva, tefila and tzedaka.
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yersp




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:36 am
Jewishfoodie wrote:
This is heartbreaking. But it was nothing more than a g'zeira from Hashem. I'm sure u all know the story of the Malach Hamaves complaining to Hashem that everyone will hate him and blame him. And the answer he got was, nobody will ever blame you. They'll blame the food, the car, the weather, the bullet, the pool, the counselors..

If we have to analyze this, I feel we should analyze why Hashem is sending us these messages. And how could we improve so that these g'zeiros stop.

Had there even been 2 counselors per child, there is only one way to stop a g'zeira. Tefillah.

Sorry. But there's no room, no corner, no 'safe space' that Hashem can't get to.

May Hashem bring a full nechama to the family and bring Moshiach so that our pain and suffering ends.

No blame except on ourselves plz.

No, I'm not a representative of Sahara Sams. I'm not a counselor and nobody paid me to say this.


You said it well
We need to daven and daven and daven some more and have full faith and trust in Hashem that He is watching over everyone.
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Jewishfoodie




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:37 am
gamanit wrote:
Beautiful post. Just wanted to correct you; there are three things: teshuva, tefila and tzedaka.


Thank you. You are correct.
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nchr




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Jul 31 2019, 11:39 am
yersp wrote:
You said it well
We need to daven and daven and daven some more and have full faith and trust in Hashem that He is watching over everyone.


But also demand our camps and children exercise common sense. Don't send children who cannot swim adequately to water parks. Don't send children who misbehave to water parks. Yes, anyone can drown ch'v. 10 people down in the US everyday, 2 of which are children. But do your hishtadlus. It's like allowing a child to play with a gun or drive a car. Honestly, I've personally seen parents at pools, as another poster pointed out. Also demand better lifeguards because many of those in the ring-wing day camps and camps are not adequate.
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