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-> In the News
sweet
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 Wed, Jul 31 2019, 6:25 pm
| HonesttoGod wrote: | My sons day camp was camp as normal. According to Chai Lifeline they say try keep the child’s schedule as close to normal as possible because they need it. And my son didn’t talk about it at all once he came home.
I did take him late though I let him sleep in. |
Same.
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nchr
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 7:26 pm
| Reality wrote: | What is your vendetta against the "right wing"?
This tragedy could have happened to anyone. It isn't the "right wing" camp's fault.
Would you be reacting the same way if it was a MO camp? |
1. I never attributed this tragic event to right-wing or not. We have no idea, and probably never will know what happened. If it was child's play - irresponsible life guards - a game - a sociopathic child murdered - cardiac arrest in the pool - etc. What it is is a tragic gezeira, and it doesn't matter who or what this child was or where he was from - it is tragic.
2. People were asking what can be done in the future to try, to the bet of our abilities, to prevent this. Since 10 people, 2 of whom are children, drown in the US per daily, and very good swimmers can drown too, this is a valid question.
Yes, generally people (not all) from many (not all) right-wing communities are less likely to be excellent swimmers (either because of cost, exposure to pools, values, etc.), know about pool safety, communicate when there is a danger (especially if English is not a first language, etc.) Facilities need to have this in mind when such children come to their camps and be more vigilant because of that. Also, some right-wing camps have unlicensed life guards or those who are not fit to life guard - or children who are given passes for deep water swimming, but cannot swim (this may be an issue in MO camps as well, but I do not have experience with that - same goes for teachers - I assume the teachers in MO schools have at the minimum a bachelors degree if not a masters or phd v. many right wing schools where teachers can have a high school diploma). This is a socio-cultural situation. So - what we can do - is educate our children about water safety, swimming, etc. and try to demand our schools follow standard Red Cross or other protocol. This is not done in my children's schools or many schools near me, but is done in some. And being educated is sometimes still not enough but sadly ch'v very educated, excellent swimmers can drown too.
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Reality
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 7:47 pm
| nchr wrote: | 1. I never attributed this tragic event to right-wing or not. We have no idea, and probably never will know what happened. If it was child's play - irresponsible life guards - a game - a sociopathic child murdered - cardiac arrest in the pool - etc. What it is is a tragic gezeira, and it doesn't matter who or what this child was or where he was from - it is tragic.
2. People were asking what can be done in the future to try, to the bet of our abilities, to prevent this. Since 10 people, 2 of whom are children, drown in the US per daily, and very good swimmers can drown too, this is a valid question.
Yes, generally people (not all) from many (not all) right-wing communities are less likely to be excellent swimmers (either because of cost, exposure to pools, values, etc.), know about pool safety, communicate when there is a danger (especially if English is not a first language, etc.) Facilities need to have this in mind when such children come to their camps and be more vigilant because of that. Also, some right-wing camps have unlicensed life guards or those who are not fit to life guard - or children who are given passes for deep water swimming, but cannot swim (this may be an issue in MO camps as well, but I do not have experience with that - same goes for teachers - I assume the teachers in MO schools have at the minimum a bachelors degree if not a masters or phd v. many right wing schools where teachers can have a high school diploma). This is a socio-cultural situation. So - what we can do - is educate our children about water safety, swimming, etc. and try to demand our schools follow standard Red Cross or other protocol. This is not done in my children's schools or many schools near me, but is done in some. And being educated is sometimes still not enough but sadly ch'v very educated, excellent swimmers can drown too. |
I don't know what community you come from but you are really generalizing about the right wing community.
Most people are not strong swimmers? How do you know? I lived in BP for years and most people learned to swim at the local Y. So it isn't like people were neglectful and didn't sign their kids up for swimming lessons. And when I took lessons there they taught all skills including sit-diving. (No full diving because no diving board.)
My own son failed the deep water test this year at a right wing swim school. I was disappointed but he couldn't do one skill properly so he failed. End of story. It didn't matter to them that I spent hundreds of dollars. And guess what? He wasn't the only one. Stop generalizing!!
My daughter took lifeguarding at a different right wing swim school. They were super tough and strict and followed all rules and requirements to the letter. She passed but not everyone in her group did. Stop generalizing!!
And you are living in a dream world that every MO school and camp follows every safety precaution etc.. Just like in the "right wing" world some are good and some are not so good.
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Cheiny
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 7:53 pm
| tweety1 wrote: | Five Brooklyn day camps (dunno which ones) went to Sahara Sam's today and they nebach found one boy under the water in the kiddie pool.
And if I'm not gonna let my kids ever go to a water park again will I be a maniac!? Plz tell me no. I'm crying away. This mother's pain-- no words. |
So sad. I don’t think most people realize what a dangerous time the 3 weeks is for klal Yisroel.
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Cheiny
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 7:54 pm
| creditcards wrote: | | How come there were no lifeguards? |
The child was in a kiddie pool....don’t know who was responsible for watching him.
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ectomorph
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:16 pm
| nchr wrote: | 1. I never attributed this tragic event to right-wing or not. We have no idea, and probably never will know what happened. If it was child's play - irresponsible life guards - a game - a sociopathic child murdered - cardiac arrest in the pool - etc. What it is is a tragic gezeira, and it doesn't matter who or what this child was or where he was from - it is tragic.
2. People were asking what can be done in the future to try, to the bet of our abilities, to prevent this. Since 10 people, 2 of whom are children, drown in the US per daily, and very good swimmers can drown too, this is a valid question.
Yes, generally people (not all) from many (not all) right-wing communities are less likely to be excellent swimmers (either because of cost, exposure to pools, values, etc.), know about pool safety, communicate when there is a danger (especially if English is not a first language, etc.) Facilities need to have this in mind when such children come to their camps and be more vigilant because of that. Also, some right-wing camps have unlicensed life guards or those who are not fit to life guard - or children who are given passes for deep water swimming, but cannot swim (this may be an issue in MO camps as well, but I do not have experience with that - same goes for teachers - I assume the teachers in MO schools have at the minimum a bachelors degree if not a masters or phd v. many right wing schools where teachers can have a high school diploma). This is a socio-cultural situation. So - what we can do - is educate our children about water safety, swimming, etc. and try to demand our schools follow standard Red Cross or other protocol. This is not done in my children's schools or many schools near me, but is done in some. And being educated is sometimes still not enough but sadly ch'v very educated, excellent swimmers can drown too. |
I disagree.
Frankly, it's dangerous for camps to go to water parks, and they shouldn't go.
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nchr
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:30 pm
| ectomorph wrote: | I disagree.
Frankly, it's dangerous for camps to go to water parks, and they shouldn't go. |
How many Chassidish boys from Pupa aged 8 can pass a real deep water swimming test? Communicate proficiently in English? (This is not a bad thing, BTW. Just a fact we need to be aware of)
What about Torah VeDaas?
Now try Yavneh?
The Dalton School?
This is not negative. It's just a fact that water park employees and camp staff need to be more aware of. My sons don't speak english well at this point.
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simba
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:39 pm
| nchr wrote: | How many Chassidish boys from Pupa aged 8 can pass a real deep water swimming test? Communicate proficiently in English? (This is not a bad thing, BTW. Just a fact we need to be aware of)
What about Torah VeDaas?
Now try Yavneh?
The Dalton School?
This is not negative. It's just a fact that water park employees and camp staff need to be more aware of. My sons don't speak english well at this point. |
They blow a whistle and everyone comes out. No language barrier.
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nchr
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:47 pm
| simba wrote: | | They blow a whistle and everyone comes out. No language barrier. |
Did you read the comment? I was talking about swimming proficiency, understanding instructions (if parents did not teach before), recognizing swimming concerns and communicating with staff. You want to be recognized as different when it comes to your educational requirements but not when on trips, in a pool, when driving, etc?
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Reality
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:48 pm
| nchr wrote: | How many Chassidish boys from Pupa aged 8 can pass a real deep water swimming test? Communicate proficiently in English? (This is not a bad thing, BTW. Just a fact we need to be aware of)
What about Torah VeDaas?
Now try Yavneh?
The Dalton School?
This is not negative. It's just a fact that water park employees and camp staff need to be more aware of. My sons don't speak english well at this point. |
I don't understand why you keep harping on the chassiddish part. Being a strong swimmer has nothing to do with religious affiliation.
If a child is taught they will learn. From what I have seen chasidish parents pay/teach their children to swim. Some children have a more natural aptitude then others but most if not all children can learn.
This was a tragedy. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a chasidish camp.
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Blessing1
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:49 pm
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Being a good swimmer has nothing to do with chassidish or not. It has all to do with these kids being in the city for the summer and they don't go swimming every day. Chassidish or not. The kids that do go swimming every day, generally know how to swim. And you don't need to know english, when the whistle is blown, you get out of the pool and be silent.
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nchr
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:56 pm
| Reality wrote: | I don't understand why you keep harping on the chassiddish part. Being a strong swimmer has nothing to do with religious affiliation.
If a child is taught they will learn. From what I have seen chasidish parents pay/teach their children to swim. Some children have a more natural aptitude then others but most if not all children can learn.
This was a tragedy. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a chasidish camp. |
You are not understanding my posts. I am not discussing what happened. People asked about what we can try to do in the future. One thing is facilities need to be aware or special needs for frum camps, including language barriers and the fact that some children may be called deep water swimmers but not be them. This is more likely to be a concern in more insular communities where people may be swimming at the same pools and so one bad life guard administering the test has given approval v less insular places where people may attend more pools and realize a child is not an adequate swimmer. None of this has to do with happened at Sahara Sam's yesterday and whoever read my posts knows that.
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cnc
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:56 pm
| Reality wrote: | I don't understand why you keep harping on the chassiddish part. Being a strong swimmer has nothing to do with religious affiliation.
If a child is taught they will learn. From what I have seen chasidish parents pay/teach their children to swim. Some children have a more natural aptitude then others but most if not all children can learn.
This was a tragedy. It has nothing to do with the fact that it was a chasidish camp. |
This.
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nchr
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 8:57 pm
I've said everything that that particular post said in my posts. There is some kind of reading comprehension disconnect here.
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Reality
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:13 pm
| nchr wrote: | | You are not understanding my posts. I am not discussing what happened. People asked about what we can try to do in the future. One thing is facilities need to be aware or special needs for frum camps, including language barriers and the fact that some children may be called deep water swimmers but not be them. This is more likely to be a concern in more insular communities where people may be swimming at the same pools and so one bad life guard administering the test has given approval v less insular places where people may attend more pools and realize a child is not an adequate swimmer. None of this has to do with happened at Sahara Sam's yesterday and whoever read my posts knows that. |
Let's agree to disagree?
I think more safety awareness is always a good thing.
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sweet
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:18 pm
| nchr wrote: | | I've said everything that that particular post said in my posts. There is some kind of reading comprehension disconnect here. |
Firstly, I really dont think this has anything to do with a language barrier.
Secondly, I find it impossible to believe that the average BP child doesnt understand english. They are exposed to it everyday. Its not chinese.!
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momsrus
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:28 pm
| nchr wrote: | How many Chassidish boys from Pupa aged 8 can pass a real deep water swimming test? Communicate proficiently in English? (This is not a bad thing, BTW. Just a fact we need to be aware of)
What about Torah VeDaas?
Now try Yavneh?
The Dalton School?
This is not negative. It's just a fact that water park employees and camp staff need to be more aware of. My sons don't speak english well at this point. |
Your sons don't need to speak English well to understand what get out of the pool means.
It's pretty weird for you to be talking about "right wing" community lifeguards when a kid drowned in a water park. You want to talk about right wing community lifeguards, start a spinoff.
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cnc
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:42 pm
| nchr wrote: | | I've said everything that that particular post said in my posts. There is some kind of reading comprehension disconnect here. |
If numerous posters seem to have a reading comprehension disconnect, maybe you have not expressed yourself clearly.
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summer0808
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:48 pm
I am chassidish (the type that wouldve sent to one of these daycamps if I lived in BP), grew up in BP and now live in lakewood. I have a lot of family and friends in BP & Williamsburg of this type.Reality I dont think you get the type of kids that go to these daycamps.
These kids have no exposure to swimming other than the 2-3 times a week they go swimming in daycamp. Usually in an overcrowded pool for less than an hour each time. NO they dont go swimming in the Y and get swimming lessons there. When theyre in school 6 days a week till 5-6 PM ! (ok fridays shorter)
here in lakewood there are many backyard pools so most kids get swimming lessons and/or are part of informal pool clubs so most kids will get that pool exposure. Also those that go to the country get that pool exposure. But the ones in the city usually have no proper swim exposure, no pool rules experience etc.
My son went there tonight. The director asked a shaila from the Rachmistrivka Rebbe and spoke to the headcounselour from last night. They approved going back there as they felt it was safe. But that we should daven of course.
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sweet
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Wed, Jul 31 2019, 9:55 pm
| summer0808 wrote: | I am chassidish (the type that wouldve sent to one of these daycamps if I lived in BP), grew up in BP and now live in lakewood. I have a lot of family and friends in BP & Williamsburg of this type.Reality I dont think you get the type of kids that go to these daycamps.
These kids have no exposure to swimming other than the 2-3 times a week they go swimming in daycamp. Usually in an overcrowded pool for less than an hour each time. NO they dont go swimming in the Y and get swimming lessons there. When theyre in school 6 days a week till 5-6 PM ! (ok fridays shorter)
here in lakewood there are many backyard pools so most kids get swimming lessons and/or are part of informal pool clubs so most kids will get that pool exposure. Also those that go to the country get that pool exposure. But the ones in the city usually have no proper swim exposure, no pool rules experience etc.
My son went there tonight. The director asked a shaila from the Rachmistrivka Rebbe and spoke to the headcounselour from last night. They approved going back there as they felt it was safe. But that we should daven of course. |
Theres definitely a difference between growing up with a pool and not.
I have relatives living in T.R. and the kids as young as 5 are great swimmers.
And we do and I know many others that do as well have a membership in the Y. (not that
My kids like to swim there..)
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