Fancy siyums in the nine days

creditcards

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 12:04 am

keym wrote:

My kids dont get as full on milchigs. They dont like fish.
But Ive gotten heterim because my kuds have allergies to nuts, peanuts, eggs, and some othher stuff. So feeding them during the 9 days is quite challenging, whereas chicken and rice, everyone can eat, everyone is full.

OK. Now I understand.

amother

Smokey

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 2:49 am

I really have a distaste for this "excuse loophole". For a single food type we go to such extents? Unless there were allergies involved the whole workaround feels out of touch. We can live 6 days without meat (plus 1 fast day and 2 shabbos meals)!! Are we that spoiled? I personally have asked about a heter for washing laundry- like when I was nursing -my kids spit up tons, I leaked milk all over, and was never really clean even if I changed 2-3 times a day! So I was told that if I need the clothes as I have nothing that fits me to wear and it was due to the infant, it's like it's the infants clothes and I can wash it. But would have to be an extreme situation to ask about a food. It's not like I eat chicken every night for dinner now- and no one needs chicken daily.
When I went to sleep away camp that first time, I was served meat and was like why? It's the 9 days?!? We didn't even see the siyum!! We didn't know it happened except that a staff member said so when I asked. I didn't feel comfortable eating it but I had no choice. But it felt so wrong.

etky

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 3:18 pm

amother [ White ] wrote:

The whole concept of not eating meat during the 9 days should be reevaluated. Years ago, men would work and set money aside so they can buy meat for shabbos. Meat was considered very chashuv. This simply isn't the case anymore, especially for some meats. Hotdogs and burgers are considered cheap. It doesn't make sense that I can eat a fancy piece of salmon or make a nice quiche, but I can't eat a chicken nugget. Sorry, it literally makes no sense.

Thinking about this some more.
I agree with the overall sentiment that some mourning practices are socially constructed and should be reevaluated or adjusted to keep step with modern sensibilities - if necessary then through use of a halachic loophole - just like showering (albeit in lukewarm water) is now generally permitted.
I think though that meat is different. It's true that it no longer has the luxury status that it once enjoyed. However, meat inhabits a very special category in Jewish law and thought. Animal sacrifices are tied up with elaborate ritual and even the consumption of בשר חולין- a concession to man's carnivorous appetite - is highly regulated, restricted and codified. Meat consumption is considered a lust, a תאווה - the terminology applied to it in the Torah. I think that this conception informs the ruling against consuming meat on the 9 days. Going without meat is seen as a sensual 'deprivation' - a physical craving not to be indulged, in a sense that just doesn't apply to other foods, even if they are 'fancier' and more costly.

amother

Salmon

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 4:00 pm

ra_mom wrote:

Never heard of this! We never had fleishig in camp during the 9 days. How's that chinuch? If you don't eat it at home, camp shouldn't be serving it. I know if my daughter would have that she'd come home confused.

A group learning and finishing in the 9 days is different and the group should make a seudas mitzvah.

I went to a chassidish camp. Every year the men had a siyum one day during the 9 days and they served fleishigs for the whole camp. How is it confusing for the kids, we knew that the men made a siyum and when you have a siyum you could eat fleishigs.

amother

Lime

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 4:11 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Why was an entire girls camp participating in one man's siyum? Does it sound normal to you that someone who doesn't even know you can include you in his siyum to the extent that you can override the halacha of not eating meat in the nine days? I don't know of any rav who holds that way.

amother

Salmon

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 4:46 pm

amother [ Lime ] wrote:

If I went to a camp, my parents obviously relied and trusted the camp heads to seek daas torah when needed. They said the siyum on the mike so everybody was able to hear.
I can't understand how some people think that only their way is the correct way. There are many opinions in halacha for everything. Why do you think that only your way is correct?
Also, I don't think it was one mans siyum. There was a kolel in the camp for the men and they made a siyum.

amother

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 5:04 pm

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Chayei sura?

amother

Red

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 7:02 pm

amother [ Natural ] wrote:

I ran the kitchen for a Pidyon Haben today. I asked the Rov if I was allowed to eat the fleish, and was told "NO".
The Ba'alei Simcha asked about their guests eating the fleish. Only those who washed for Hamotzi were allowed to eat the fleish.

There was even a question of who can dress in shabbos clothing! the parents and grandparents were allowed. The great grandparents asked, and were told they could also, as the ba'alei simcha would feel bad if they couldn't.

Eating meat in the 9 days is not so simple.

I made a pidyon haben during the nine days, and we were told we weren't allowed to serve meat (it was erev tisha b'av). Literally every guest was bitterly disappointed when they realized. The thing is, I made my bris milchigs, I have no earthly idea why people think it's an obligation to make a pidyon haben fleishigs, with or without the nine days. And even if it wasn't erev tisha b'av, why do we need to make these things fleishigs? Like, somehow we get around these issues with yom kippur and pesach and we do our bris/etc in the spirit of the time it arrives, why not this too?

In the end, I saved a ton of money, too!

amother

Lime

Mon, Aug 05 2019, 7:16 pm

amother [ Red ] wrote:

It's not an obligation, but in general there is a source for a seudas mitzvah to have meat. In many places outside of American it's standard for brissim to have meat too. Of course you should always follow your rav's psak.