Spinoff- how many kids do u have

byisrael

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 3:07 am

I think it's a good thing this attitude of what consists as "responsible" is pretty new - otherwhise who knows where the jewish people would be...

HKB"H gives some people more money and some people less and as klal yisroel we need to take care of each other.

Was it responsible for jewish refugee's in DP camps being completely supported by tzeddaka and facing the prospect of soon becoming immagrants in countries they did not speak the language of (they knew that for sure they would need some kind of aid) to have kids? Maybe they should have been limited to 1 or 2 like in china because they where refugee's and dependent on the wider jewish community?

What about the Jewish people in Jerusalem/ Tzfat who for centuries depended on the diaspora for finacail support - who lived in literal poverty, should they have stopped having kids?

What about the jews living in abject poverty in the Pale of Settelment in Russia, should they have stopped having kids so that the community shouldn't support them?

Maybe the jews who stayed and converted in spain in 1492 did the right thing - after all they had kids and how could you leave all finacial resources behind when you need to be responsible, and it's really irresponsible to land on the jewish community in Holland or Turkey and expect them to support you right?

How could you keep having kids when there is a Pharoh who decreed that all the boys are going to be murdered? Isn't that terribly irresponsible?

BTW I have fertility issues so won't be able to have a very large family, live in Israel where tuiton is a non issue, and we b"h make enough money to live comftorably +save a nice amount monthly+ give an nice amount of tzedakkah (we do live really simply though - but I find your attitude really sad. HKB"H gives us extra money not for crazy vacations or brand name clothing, but to help those that he has given less to.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 3:29 am

We bh have a nice sized family, we are considered wealthy in our community. Besides paying full tuition plus, my husband gives zedaka to many local cases and is an adresss for meshulachim. I can honestly say that I feel nothing but gratitude and humility to be on the giving end. The stories we hear have often nothing to with the amount of kids, but to do with "freak" situations Hashem has sent a family. I really feel , there by the Grace of GD go I, and know it's a blessing to be on the giving end and not the receiving end. The wheel of fortune could turn in an instant.

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 4:09 am

I'm wondering why bitachon only matters for parnassa.

How many people here need to see "a top doctor"? What happened to אני ה רופאך? You'll get better if Hashem wants to cure you, so why run after the best doctor?

Or when it comes to shidduchim, why bother with research? Hashem has already determined who will marry whom. What's with resumes and checking references?

If we take responsibility in these areas of life, shouldn't we be educating our children to get the best jobs possible? The Rambam in Hilchos Deos perek 5 halacha 11 writes,

דֶּרֶךְ בַּעֲלֵי דֵּעָה שֶׁיִּקְבַּע לוֹ אָדָם מְלָאכָה הַמְפַרְנֶסֶת אוֹתוֹ תְּחִלָּה. וְאַחַר כָּךְ יִקְנֶה בֵּית דִּירָה. וְאַחַר כָּךְ יִשָּׂא
אִשָּׁה...
אֲבָל הַטִּפְּשִׁין מַתְחִילִין לִשָּׂא אִשָּׁה וְאַחַר כָּךְ אִם תִּמְצָא יָדוֹ יִקְנֶה בַּיִת וְאַחַר כָּךְ בְּסוֹף יָמָיו יְחַזֵּר לְבַקֵּשׁ אֻמָּנוּת אוֹ יִתְפַּרְנֵס מִן הַצְּדָקָה.

The way of sensible people: A man should first select a permanent vocation out of which to derive a livelihood, then buy a home, and after that take unto himself a wife...But fools reverse it by taking a wife first, and after that, if he be able, purchase a home, and after that, in his declining years, he will turn about looking for a vocation, or be supported on charity.

Economic realities have changed somewhat since the twelfth century, but we can all agree that the Rambam was a religious Jew. Apparently it's not outside the ways of Torah to suggest fiscal responsibility.

amother

Ginger

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 4:25 am

amother [ Ginger ] wrote:

. Why did I get hugged??

amother

Salmon

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 5:48 am

I personally feel that a person should have financial responsibility - food, shelter, clothing - those are basic necessities. However, yeshiva schooling is somewhat of a luxury (at least the cost is making it so)! Theoretically, I can teach some Jewish items to my kids personally or hire small group Jewish tutoring for my children using only a fraction of my tuition costs. I think the majority of Jewish Orthodox families would be ok financially if not for the tuition burden (or if it can be reduced to a small percentage of income). Therefore, like someone mentioned above we should term this a "tuition crisis". If the Jewish community (leaders/Rabbis of the community) feels that yeshiva is not only meant for the wealthy and is necessary for the continued existence of the Jewish people, it is their business to work to make it accessible to all people in the community at their means. I feel it is unfair to place such a tuition burden on families who can not afford it.

Debbie

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 5:49 am

My husband and I have two children; when I was 8 months pregnant with my second daughter my husband was told that the small business he worked for was closing down.
Shortly after she was born we were in financial difficulties. However my husband studied hard at accountancy and took whatever work he could and I took on what I could.
It took a few years but Chasdei Hashem the hard work paid off and our fortunes turned around.
Hashem let it happen for our small family and he can let it happen for a larger family too.
Naturally I believe we all have to do our hischtadlus,I don't believe anyone should have the attitude of 'I'll have 12 children and someone else can pay for them!' We have to have a sense of responsibility;however we can never know how things will change.
One more thing,I would have loved to have had more children,but was advised against it due to the medication I had to take for a chronic medical condition.

happyone

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 7:16 am

A family member kept having children and some judgemental people kept complaining how irresponsible they are as who will marry the children off. After 10+ children he made two incredible deals allowing him to have enough money set aside to marry off his first six and give back tzedaka to those yeshivas that gave him legit tuition breaks. Another family member who "responsibly" family planned, is currently going through foreclosure and heaven help us all when his daughter has to get married. God plans for us. Noone could forsee their financial future from when a child is born until independence. To me family should be a husband and wife decision based on how much they can handle . Finances are way out of control as long as you are a responsible person.

ectomorph

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 7:24 am

byisrael wrote:

Beautiful post!! Hashem should bless you.

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 9:49 am

byisrael wrote:

It is interesting to me that couples married and had children while in the DP camps but had few additional children after immigrating to other countries and trying to build a life. I know that some survivors had large families but it looks to me from the Holocaust memoirs that I read that survivors often had fewer children than their parents had had as well as that their own children eventually had. It may have been that there was a recognition that these families had no support from relatives because they had all been killed and knew that it would be too difficult to both rebuild their lives and raise large families.
I don't think finances should limit family size but emotional and physical support should be factors. There is strength in numbers when families and communities can help each other out.

ectomorph

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 9:52 am

southernbubby wrote:

While I disagree with the Netura Karta, my impoverished former neighbors did run a co-op school with others from their group. It can be done so that tuition is not a factor in the family's finances.
Besides that, I see a lot of good causes here that are supposed to relieve the sting of poverty.

I actually think co op schools are going to be the new frontier, with stay at home moms becoming the teachers. I think this will ease the financial strains in some ways but cause others (for example, if both parents work it will be hard to find a place). And I think the educational standards will drop a bit unless you're very lucky in the parent body of your coop.

I see a lot of home schooling and semi- homeschooling starting around me.

ectomorph

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 10:00 am

A major cause of the tuition crisis is large communities becoming victims of their own success. Community schools can only function without stigma when they are the only choice for both the daughter of the Rabbi and the daughter of the local meshugener and the daughter of the local dentist.

I was accepted to a particular in town high school due to their sense of responsibility and rejected from a number of other high schools. I've heard that this high school had to stop doing this because when other in town high schools heard of this policy, they refused to accept any "second rate" girls. Now everyone has to accept students equally again. Usually through pressure from the right sources.

Amusingly, one of the schools that rejected me for being second rate recently closed. And I like to think that the schools I ended up attending are delighted at how I turned out Smile

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 11:11 am

southernbubby wrote:

The smaller family size of Holocaust survivors likely has to do with physical factors just as much as emotional ones. Many survivors lost their prime fertile years. Many took years to build up their physical strength again. I'm sure many suffered from IF because of the horrifying conditions.