Spinoff- how many kids do u have

ectomorph

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 8:18 am

southernbubby wrote:

It is interesting to me that couples married and had children while in the DP camps but had few additional children after immigrating to other countries and trying to build a life. I know that some survivors had large families but it looks to me from the Holocaust memoirs that I read that survivors often had fewer children than their parents had had as well as that their own children eventually had. It may have been that there was a recognition that these families had no support from relatives because they had all been killed and knew that it would be too difficult to both rebuild their lives and raise large families.
I don't think finances should limit family size but emotional and physical support should be factors. There is strength in numbers when families and communities can help each other out.

Many survivors were starting a second family. They also had fewer kids because their bodies suffered malnutrition during the war. I'm a grandchild if survivors and they wanted as many kids as they could. It just wasn't physically possible.

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 8:22 am

ectomorph wrote:

Israel manages to make it reasonable. If we weren't also paying public school tuition with our taxes it would be easier.

Right. So if you move to Israel, you won't have tuition problems. (General you, not you specifically. I don't know anything about you.) If you live in the US, you need to pay for public schools. And the separation of church and state, which has been wonderful for the Jewish community, means that you have to pay separately for religious schooling. That is the cost of living in the US. And it seems that many posters would rather live in America and complain than move.

ectomorph

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 8:30 am

amother [ Emerald ] wrote:

ectomorph- are the people around you choosing homeschooling for financial reasons or other reasons?

I'm seeing a combination of lack of good choices (I live oot, so it's community school or bust) and financial reasons. I think a lot of parents start out because they don't like the community school, and they continue because it's difficult to transition back into the system.

( inserting a personal opinion - It seems to be more popular among BTs, and I think their kids suffer the most from it. They end up frum, but not culturally frum, and a lot go OTD. The FFBs generally have fewer issues from what I can see. But FFBs usually put their kids in frum schools by high school. )

ectomorph

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 8:36 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

It seems you are the perfect candidate to sponsor aliya for large families!

gamanit

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 8:37 am

amother [ Firebrick ] wrote:

I'm wondering why bitachon only matters for parnassa.

How many people here need to see "a top doctor"? What happened to אני ה רופאך? You'll get better if Hashem wants to cure you, so why run after the best doctor?

Or when it comes to shidduchim, why bother with research? Hashem has already determined who will marry whom. What's with resumes and checking references?

If we take responsibility in these areas of life, shouldn't we be educating our children to get the best jobs possible? The Rambam in Hilchos Deos perek 5 halacha 11 writes,

דֶּרֶךְ בַּעֲלֵי דֵּעָה שֶׁיִּקְבַּע לוֹ אָדָם מְלָאכָה הַמְפַרְנֶסֶת אוֹתוֹ תְּחִלָּה. וְאַחַר כָּךְ יִקְנֶה בֵּית דִּירָה. וְאַחַר כָּךְ יִשָּׂא
אִשָּׁה...
אֲבָל הַטִּפְּשִׁין מַתְחִילִין לִשָּׂא אִשָּׁה וְאַחַר כָּךְ אִם תִּמְצָא יָדוֹ יִקְנֶה בַּיִת וְאַחַר כָּךְ בְּסוֹף יָמָיו יְחַזֵּר לְבַקֵּשׁ אֻמָּנוּת אוֹ יִתְפַּרְנֵס מִן הַצְּדָקָה.

The way of sensible people: A man should first select a permanent vocation out of which to derive a livelihood, then buy a home, and after that take unto himself a wife...But fools reverse it by taking a wife first, and after that, if he be able, purchase a home, and after that, in his declining years, he will turn about looking for a vocation, or be supported on charity.

Economic realities have changed somewhat since the twelfth century, but we can all agree that the Rambam was a religious Jew. Apparently it's not outside the ways of Torah to suggest fiscal responsibility.

Are you aware of anyone quitting their job because Hashem will provide? I don't know anyone like that. They keep working and believing that Hashem will send them the money they need to get by. With current housing cost it makes no sense to first buy a house and then get married. You'd be too old to have kids (yes I know there are exceptions and people who earn more). What on earth is wrong with renting?

nursemomma

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 8:43 am

amother [ Cyan ] wrote:

No. There’s actually a huge path in between both approaches. It’s called doing my hishtadlus while recognizing and fully believing that it is NOT this hishtadlus which brings me my parnassah but Hashem’s ratzon. Full stop. That’s how I was raised to believe is the frum hashkafa and I honestly feel bad for the many posters on here who believe otherwise.

Sorry, OP, but most ppl I know think/plan alike, regardless of family size. I don’t know a single person who believes their financial reality will never improve. And I don’t know anyone who thinks money will fall from the sky either.

We do our best within normal parameters and then we put it in His hands.

It is not being irresponsible.

It is not being naive.

It is living a life where you truly believe that Gd runs the world.

This.
Also, OP, I highly recommend you start reading the book "Living Emunah"- it is divided into daily lessons. I feel sorry for you that you are so far away from recognizing who is in charge here...Hint: It's not your, nor your husband.
And no, I don't think people should be having children without any thought whatsoever. But to think that we can plan out our lives exactly how we deem will be comfortable is absurd. Life isn't meant to be a picnic, everyone has their challenges. W

ShishKabob

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 8:53 am

amother [ Bronze ] wrote:

I think that the underlying problem here is that you view children as a liability that you need to be able to justify or afford.

I hope this is not true. Then you go down the slippery slope of making sure that handicapped children don't get any services either as well as the elderly because they are not viewed as an asset.
I happen to think that this thread smacks of very anti frum views and this is officially supposed to be a frum website.
We all know what the frum views on large families are, why does op feel a need to come here and expound on this? she can go to non frum websites and get lots of support and encouragement enough to go around and around and around.

ShishKabob

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 9:00 am

ShishKabob wrote:

I loved this post!
I think we really should be more responsible about having large families. We should all make sure that we are guaranteed a government job that provides the best health coverage with dental btw, and with a pension and then we should go and start having our children.
Boy will bonei Olam need to do more fundraising, will you care to contribute?

I had to come back and say that I'd be getting a paid late model car, paid insurance, paid gas and tolls, a ton of paid holiday, personal and vacation days. I also would get invited to parties with glatt kosher food because of the diversity of the people that work for the federal government. I would also do my job at my leisure because that's the way my workplace works. If you work too efficiently you end up with no work at all.
And my friend, that paycheck that I am getting plus all the perks, are coming out of your taxpayer dollar! every single bit of it! Just because I have a job with the federal government!

Is this considered tzeddaka cuz it's coming out of your pocket?
Are you going to stop paying your taxes because of this, because it's not fair for you to fund my auto and insurance bills and my sick days off and my yom tov days off? And you also fund every penny of my paycheck! Out of your hard earned taxpayer dollar! Whew!

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 10:05 am

ectomorph wrote:

But right after the war, in the DP camps, they bore children and later, when they had physically recovered, they were no longer having children. I have seen several theories, some say that their health or fertility didn't allow it and others say that they chose not to because of the struggle to rebuild with no support.

amother

Firebrick

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 11:20 am

gamanit wrote:

I don't think you understand the Rambam. He's saying that a man should be financially solid before marrying and starting a family. The specifics of buying vs renting are irrelevant.

dancingqueen

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 1:42 pm

byisrael wrote:

I think it's a good thing this attitude of what consists as "responsible" is pretty new - otherwhise who knows where the jewish people would be...

HKB"H gives some people more money and some people less and as klal yisroel we need to take care of each other.

Was it responsible for jewish refugee's in DP camps being completely supported by tzeddaka and facing the prospect of soon becoming immagrants in countries they did not speak the language of (they knew that for sure they would need some kind of aid) to have kids? Maybe they should have been limited to 1 or 2 like in china because they where refugee's and dependent on the wider jewish community?

What about the Jewish people in Jerusalem/ Tzfat who for centuries depended on the diaspora for finacail support - who lived in literal poverty, should they have stopped having kids?

What about the jews living in abject poverty in the Pale of Settelment in Russia, should they have stopped having kids so that the community shouldn't support them?

Maybe the jews who stayed and converted in spain in 1492 did the right thing - after all they had kids and how could you leave all finacial resources behind when you need to be responsible, and it's really irresponsible to land on the jewish community in Holland or Turkey and expect them to support you right?

How could you keep having kids when there is a Pharoh who decreed that all the boys are going to be murdered? Isn't that terribly irresponsible?

BTW I have fertility issues so won't be able to have a very large family, live in Israel where tuiton is a non issue, and we b"h make enough money to live comftorably +save a nice amount monthly+ give an nice amount of tzedakkah (we do live really simply though - but I find your attitude really sad. HKB"H gives us extra money not for crazy vacations or brand name clothing, but to help those that he has given less to.

Thanks to websites like geni we’ve been able to trace back our family trees and I really don’t see uber large families there.

And thanks to whoever posted that rambam, financial responsibility is definitely a Jewish value.

amother

Navy

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 2:42 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

Mostly because we don't know the names of the still births and the ones that died without children... There were families of 10+ births but they often only listed the ones who survived. Especially farther in the past.

Many c sections today would be still births then.

My grandfather: 5 siblings, one living (him). My grandmother: 17 births, 3 living until adult hood
Other grandfather: infertility, he was only child
Other grandmother: 2 siblings, no record and she died young.

GreenEyes26

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 2:48 pm

I think some women are forgetting that reliable birth control wasn’t available until the 1960s. Families didn’t use to have a choice in how many pregnancies they had, which is also why families may have tended to be bigger.

Now, BH, we do have choices. And no, it wouldn’t be smart to have many children in abject poverty like they use to in the shtetl.

(And btw, just like vaccinations, I have a feeling many many MANY of our great-grandmothers would have JUMPED at the chance to control how many little mouths they had to feed.)

southernbubby

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 2:57 pm

GreenEyes26 wrote:

Many men traveled to make a living and were gone for sometimes a year or more at a time which probably resulted in fewer births as well as lengthy periods of breast feeding.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, Aug 07 2019, 3:25 pm

ShishKabob wrote:

This post in insulting. I'm a federal government employee. I work hard for my salary just like everyone else. I do work efficiently and quickly. I do important work and I save lives. And I have plenty of work to keep me busy.
Insurance isn't that great anymore but I'm higher on the pay scale which impacts insurance. I earn my time off. Granted I may have a bit more than others but if I'd leave the government for the private sector, I'd more than double my salary.

Maybe your Agencey is not set up like mine. But my co workers and I work hard. Don't assume the whole government runs as poorly as your office.