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amother

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:16 pm

Child is strong-willed, unbending, and has a quick, snappy answer for everything. At the same time she is high-strung and sensitive and everything sets her off. She will cry inconsolably for up to an hour. (She's 11).

She is constantly getting into trouble and then begging for another chance, which I give.

But I am so sick of it. I feel like on the one hand, everyone makes mistakes, especially kids, and deserves another chance. But on the other hand am I teaching her that she can do whatever she wants to and then make up for it later?

Today she was irking me terribly. I had an important work letter to draft and she was sitting a few feet from me making distracting noises. I asked her to please either stop the noise or do it in another room. She just ignored me. I asked 3-4x nicely. No response. Kept doing it. I stood up walked over to her and told her that this is the last time I'm asking. She kept at it. I walked into her bedroom and took one of her favorite toys and told her today I'm giving it away.

Now she is hysterical. Crying and saying she's sorry. But when I ask her what she's sorry for she grunts at me. She will give up, walk away, come back 20 minutes later and try again. Same thing. Crying and saying sorry but will not say what for or if she understands why I'm so angry. Tells me I'm not nice and goes away for the next 20 or so minutes until it's time to come repeat.

Should I accept this seemingly empty apology and give back the toy? Should I stand my ground? I usually back down and give in because I feel bad for her. But then nothing ever changes.

WWYD? I don't have this difficulty with my other children and feel like I just don't know how to parent this child well.

behappy2

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:19 pm

Did you ever read a parenting book or take a parenting course?

amother

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:22 pm

behappy2 wrote:

Did you ever read a parenting book or take a parenting course?

Wow, I must be really, really, really doing it wrong for you to ask me that.

Yes, I've read many parenting books. No, never went to a course.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:22 pm

Giving a toy away seems rather harsh.
Especially since she wasn't warned that would be the consequence.
Next time, maybe tell her "if you continue to do x, the consequence will be y". So she knows.
And try to make sure it is a logical consequence.
In this situation, I would have removed myself and gone into another room (and closed the door so she can't enter) and completed the work there.
She sounds very attention seeking and needy, so look for ways you can fill that need.

chicco

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:25 pm

A couple of things jump out at me. First of all, you took a toy and told her you were getting rid of it without warning. I don't think that is fair. Additionally, I would not threaten to do something and then not follow through. That makes your threats or consequences worthless. Additionally, how is that consequence even relevant to what she did wrong?

Children need clear and straight consequences to understand what will happen or why. They also need to trust you and know what to expect from you. Your behavior/ you reacting in your own frustration is confusing your child.

Generally if you are not getting through to a child, the child is lacking in the tools to respond appropriately. Try and figure out why your daughter is struggling to listen. In the meantime, be clear about your demands and what the consequences will be, and follow through. Also try and make the consequences fit the crime.

groovy1224

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:26 pm

Just based on that example, it sounds like there needs to be clearer rules on what exactly will happen if she doesn't listen. It can't be where you just ask her x amount of times and then you get fed up and then choose whatever punishment feels right in the moment, depending on how tired/annoyed/exasperated you are. Because then it's really totally arbitrary and it A)won't be effective B)won't be enforceable and C)ultimately isn't fair to the kids, if they aren't given clear direction on what is expected of them and what the consequences will be if they act out.

If you haven't read 1-2-3 magic, I highly recommend it. It really helps cut out all the unnecessary speeches and bargaining that we all do, and just cuts to effective discipline.

Whatever you do, don't choose punishments that you will later feel guilty about and take back, because it really undermines anything you've accomplished until then.

behappy2

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:39 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Wow, I must be really, really, really doing it wrong for you to ask me that.

Yes, I've read many parenting books. No, never went to a course.

That wasn't my intention. Just trying to figure out where your blind spot is. One thing that is aleph Bais of parenting courses is to use a consistent method that is reasonable. So for example you can tell her that if she continues standing over you she will miss time together with you later. Use a small consequence and follow through. Over time she will get used to the fact that you are serious. You used a big consequence and you didn't warn her. Often though even if we know the right thing to do we dont do it because we have other issues going on.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:46 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Wow, I must be really, really, really doing it wrong for you to ask me that.

Yes, I've read many parenting books. No, never went to a course.

try Blimie Heller. She is amazing and will help you figure out all these normal issues. It doesnt mean anything is bad that makes you need a parenting course. I think its something that everyone needs even though their children can appear to be easy children.

It seems that your daughter probably needs some empathy and validation and may need something deeper as well. I dont think taking away anything from her will change anything or help her learn.

Pm me for me details.

mommy201

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:49 pm

behappy2 wrote:

why do consequences if you can effectively help and teach your children in another way. Consequence/punishments are just an easy way out in the moment, it doesnt teach the child much long term, will only teach them not to do something if they will lose something, but they wont generally learn that the action in itself is not ok. they may stop since they dont want the consequence - but it doesnt seem like effective teaching to me for the long term.

ra_mom

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 1:50 pm

Great post chicco!!
To me it seems like the parent child relationship needs to be fostered and strengthened. This child needs connection and empathy.
I agree that Blimie Hellers parenting course on connection would be great for you and your child. It's a short course and not overwhelming.

behappy2

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 4:09 pm

mommy201 wrote:

I wasn't saying what to do. Consenquences are definitely one of the basics and the way she used it in her OP is missing skills of how to use consequences effectively. I wouldn't answer what to do unless someone is having a conversation with me. This post is missing a ton of background info. That's why I said there is usually more to it than lack of skills.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Aug 08 2019, 4:24 pm

//Child is strong-willed, unbending, and has a quick, snappy answer for everything. At the same time she is high-strung and sensitive and everything sets her off. She will cry inconsolably for up to an hour. (She's 11).

She is constantly getting into trouble and then begging for another chance, which I give.

She just ignored me. I asked 3-4x nicely. No response. Kept doing it.

But when I ask her what she's sorry for she grunts at me. will not say what for or if she understands why I'm so angry. Tells me I'm not nice and goes away for the next 20 or so minutes until it's time to come repeat. //

I have two children who need speech therapy and boy do some of the things you write jump out at me as difficulties with expressive language! You say you do fine with your other children, so lets figure out what is different about THIS child. Yeah, maybe you blew it on this one incident without giving her a warning, but if your other kids are OK, safe to say your parenting skills are fairly decent.

Look at what you wrote! Quick, snappy answers (does not seem to be able to give detail), crying for an hour (not being able to express what's bothering her so just cries), getting into trouble and begging for another chance (does she clearly understand what's expected of her - maybe receptive language issues??), ignoring a request (does she really get it? more receptive issues?), she grunts and cannot say why you are angry (again, difficulty expressing herself, maybe difficulty inferring how her behavior affects others).

If I were you, I'd forget the sweet well-meaning parenting "experts" who know all about how to parent typical children. This one ain't typical! Get a speech eval! You may learn a lot!

amother

Babyblue

Wed, Aug 14 2019, 8:49 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

These behaviors you’re describing are common when children have some type of inflammation or bacterial overgrowth in the body. How is her health? How is her diet?

torquoise

Wed, Aug 14 2019, 9:32 pm

I would strangle her. I think you're really nice for just taking a toy away. Yay for you!

OK in all seriousness, I think it took huge amounts of patience to deal with what you dealt with, saying it nicely and imposing "payment" (in toys) for unacceptable behavior. I think you're an awesome mom!

I don't really have tons of advice, since I'm not a super-duper parent myself. One thing I noticed that seems to be left out of a lot of parenting books/courses is Sarah Chana Radcliffe's 80/20 rule.
Give 80% positive.
That will allow for 20% negative, which comes naturally when parenting (an EASY child.)
Feel free to start with totally different percentages, any change is great!!

The positive that I try to do with my kids (when I'm feeling energetic, okay emotionally, not busy, not tired, and already did self-care. Ok that's like almost never, so please don't feel bad if you can't do this)
Making time to shmooze - 5 minutes
If they're ready for bed at a certain time, they earn 5-10 minutes of shmoozing time.
Smile at them, and give a compliment, especially when they did something well
Dance with them. Piggy back rides. Fling them onto the couch (a favorite in my house)
Occasional dates, just with Mommy - usually includes a walk and something very cheap (slurpee, Rita's) but I try to keep the cheap thing out. Grocery shopping counts as a date too.
Play games with them!!! (I hate hate hate sitting on the floor and playing with my kids. It is so boring and I hate it. But when we do it, the effect is MAGIC!! Happy, content kids that fight less. Wow!) It is amazing what a few minutes of game-playing can do for your kid.
Look at baby pictures together, and of course tell him/her how cute he/she was, and some funny stories.

Hope this helps!! You are dealing with a child that is not easy, and give yourself a pat on the back for every single thing you do for her, even if she doesn't appreciate it.

Hugs!!

amother

Powderblue

Wed, Aug 14 2019, 10:36 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

OP first I want to sympathize. Sometimes when I'm trying to focus on work, distracting noises around me from the kids drive me crazy and I definitely don't react in the most ideal way.

I'm only responding to the question of what to do now. I agree with the other posters who said that this wasn't a good consequence. I also agree that once you make a threat, you lose credibility if you don't follow through. HOWEVER, if you almost always do follow through, the world won't end if you don't follow through this one time.

In this case, I think it's ok to wait for a time tomorrow when both of you are calm. Sit her down and discuss what happened. Tell her you made a mistake when you said you would give away her toy, and you are not going to give it away. You said it because you were feeling extremely frustrated and anxious. Ask her if she understands what this means. Ask her what she thinks she could have done differently yesterday. Ask her what she would like you to do, next time something like this happens. How does she think you should respond to her? Try to brainstorm in a collaborative way.

As a side point, I'm wondering. When you told her to stop making the noise, did you make direct eye contact with her? Did she make eye contact back? Sometimes when the kids are acting wild and it looks like they're in their own world, I find it may help to lightly touch them, on the shoulder or arm, to bring them back into the present. If still no eye contact, you can say, Please look at me. Say it in a calm, low measured tone. Repeat it as necessary. Chaya, please look at me. Chaya, I'm asking you to please look at me. Then, when she looks, say Please stop making this noise. (Again, very hard to do when you're feeling stressed, I know)

As for the issue of losing credibility by not following through on the consequence, like others said, I would try to strategize for the future to avoid making threats except on extremely rare occasions. I have a dd who is younger than yours but sounds like a similar personality. I found that what works for her is to avoid power struggles and threats at all cost. Of course when I'm stressed myself I slip up, and that never ends up with a good result.

esther11

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 12:44 am

Another vote for Blimie Heller’s course! Your example fits so well with her mentality and methodology.

amother

Aubergine

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:07 am

This child is testing you - by backing down on a punishment you are encouraging her to keep on testing.

I would tell her if she deliberately disobeys (keeps disturbing) Taking One Toy away for a week. If she throws tantrum - take away another one. This child must learn that you're the boss. She will keep walking all over you if you keep letting her get away with it. Nothing terrible will happen to her if she loses her toy for a week - don't give in!

amother

Aubergine

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:24 am

Check out John Rosamund's "The Well Behaved Child" - you can read excerpts on Amazon that explains his method - which is old fashioned punishment (not hitting) which will work if parents are not too wimpy to follow through.

This "new style" parenting is making parents indecisive - and some kids will take big advantage. You are not a bad parent if your kid cries when punished - some kids won't learn any other way.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 2:48 am

When she is calm, can you explain things to her? Can she communicate effectively when she is not emotional? I think the speech evaluation would be a good place to start, just to rule it out if nothing more. It can't hurt.

She's 11. She's hormonal. She has no idea what she wants! Yes, she will cry at the drop of a hat, and not be able to control it. This does not mean that you have to fix everything for her.

If she's making noises at you, you could just stop what you are doing, look her square in the eye, and say "Do you need attention? What would help you right now?" By addressing the behavior in a more helpful way, it will take a lot less time than all the drama you just went through.

If she responds to rational explanations when she is calm, then "Parenting Teens with Love and Logic" is the book for you. She may be a bit too young for some of it this year, but by next year for sure you are going to want this book.

My DD was really hard at that age, and this book saved our relationship, and my sanity. We reduced fights and meltdowns by about 90% using these techniques. At the same time she became more confident, mature, and independent because she saw that I was including her in decisions. We could come up with a game plan together, and I valued her input.

Basically, instead of it being you against DD and her behavior problems, you put yourself and DD on the same team. Put the problem on the other side, and the two of you discuss how to deal with the behavior. Changing that one dynamic will change everything. Your child will see that it's not her that you dislike, it's that particular behavior.

Praise good choices and good behavior, and cooperate together to solve unwanted behaviors. Brainstorming together is a really powerful bonding tool. You don't have to agree with everything she suggests, but you have to take it into account and show her that you are at least giving it consideration. Compromise when you can, and be as clear as you can.

I would often ask DD things like "You were out past 6pm, and didn't call. What do you think your consequence should be?" and she'd say "Ground me for a week!" I'd say "Well, that sounds a little bit harsh. I'm a little mad, but not that mad. How about I ground you for three days, but you can work off two of those days by helping me with chores?" DD was happy to get off with one day of grounding, and cheerfully did all the chores I asked. Amazing!

amother

Powderblue

Thu, Aug 15 2019, 9:12 am

amother [ Aubergine ] wrote:

Taking a toy away for a week IS backing down, because that wasn't OP's threat, anyway. Her threat was to give the toy away. So nothing is gained by this.

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