S/O Is veganism against Jewish values?

amother

Fuchsia

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 12:38 pm

dankbar wrote:

I didnt read entire thread.

Hashem created world creations in different levels.
Domem, Tzomeach, Chaya, Medaber.

Each higher level feeds off from lower level of creation physically to sustain the world & spiritually, it gets its tikkun & gets elevated to higher level of creation when being consumed by higher level.
It goes up in madreiga.
Plants need soil, water to grow.
Chayas beheimas eat off plants & smaller animals than themselves
Then Humans consume animal & their products. Thus elevating them to highest level.
When goes through this chain, the lowest level goes through the stages & from lowest level can get to the top.

Its the circle of life.... and it moves us all....

cbsp

Fri, Aug 16 2019, 1:06 pm

amother [ Aqua ] wrote:

Tsaar baalei chaim it’s against Jewish values
The way things were done before it’s very different from today
I stopped eating meat after seeing all what the cows go though till the schita .
I can’t undertand how rabbis give Hashgacha to meat and food that the animals had to go though some much suffering.
No .I don’t think that life of a cow it’s the same as a human being

And that is why I asked for a source.

Because I trust that the Rabbanim have decided that this way is muttar l'halachah and not considered tza'ar ba'alei chaim.

Can things be improved so that the animals are more comfortable? Perhaps... .but since when are chumrahs a Good Thing(tm) on imamother

(last line tongue in cheek)

amother

Salmon

Sat, Aug 17 2019, 2:22 pm

cbsp wrote:

I don't follow blindly. Since there is no compulsory mitzva to eat meat, I can trust my own judgment here and just refrain from eating meat.

amother

Salmon

Sat, Aug 17 2019, 2:30 pm

amother [ Oak ] wrote:

Sheep are pretty happy.

Actually, most of them suffer pretty terribly in the wool industry.

The problem is that due to human intervention over thousands of years, sheep rely on us to remove their wool coat every year. So it's not like we can just leave them alone. But the industry is extremely cruel, and I wouldn't encourage the raising of even more sheep by buying wool products.

amother

Salmon

Sat, Aug 17 2019, 2:42 pm

cbsp wrote:

Why is reducing animal cruelty a 'chumrah'? I don't understand the cynicism.

Does it specifically have to say in the Torah, 'Do NOT grind up male chicks alive' for us to stop doing it?

Can't we think with our own brains? If a rabbi hasn't come out against it, then it must be ok?

Rabbis are people too, subject to their culture and upbringing. Right up until the last year or two, many many MANY rabbis did not vocally come out against pedophilia in our communities. In fact, many tried to hide it and actively sweep it under the rug. Does that mean the public uproar against that was wrong? We should just shut up until the rabbis change their minds on their own?

Rabbis and the public are in a dynamic relationship. It's not just the public who is reliant on the rabbi to show the way; the rabbi relies on the public to rail against the problems loudly enough, so he can heed and lead appropriately.

imasoftov

Sat, Aug 17 2019, 3:01 pm

nylon wrote:

Yes. Beyond the issue of meat there is a problem for Jewish vegans because sifrei Torah, mezuzot, and tefillin are written on parchment.

There are synthetic tallitot though.

This is neither a psak nor a recommendation, and anyone who is interested should ask a rabbi, but it might be possible for a vegan to use parchment as well as tefillin cases from animals of kosher species that died of natural causes.

Orach Chaim 32 discusses this in paragraph 12 about the parchment of tefillin and 37 about the cases. Sifrei Torah are mentioned in Yoreh De'ah.271.1 (I had to create a tinyurl link because this site doesn't understand URLs with apostrophes)

I didn't see anything pro or con where the Shulchan Aruch discusses writing mezuzot, but Rambam permits parchment for all three mitzvot like this in Hilchot Tefillin, Mezuzah, and Sefer Torah 1.10.

It's not clear if synthetic fabrics need tzitzit, but even if a vegan objects to shearing a live sheep it might be that wool from a sheep that died of natural causes is also allowed. I haven't found a source but since wool isn't eiver min hachai, it may be that other kashrut regulations don't apply either.

amother

Aqua

Sat, Aug 17 2019, 7:42 pm

[quote="cbsp"]And that is why I asked for a source.

Because I trust that the Rabbanim have decided that this way is muttar l'halachah and not considered tza'ar ba'alei chaim.

quote] 🤑🤑🤑🤑🤑
sometimes money speaks louder

behappy2

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 1:13 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Slaves are also ok according to the Torah.
The oldest son inherits double according to the Torah.
A parent should hit his child according to the Torah, in order to discipline him.
A woman's place is in the home, according to the Torah.
An enemy woman can be captured, shaved, set aside and then (if the Hebrew soldier so desires) forcibly married and raped.
Etc etc etc
We have evolved our interpretations of Torah over history. We dont live exactly the way they lived during the biblical era.

A lot of the norms above were necessary then, not now.

Are you suggesting that the Torah is outdated?

amother

Salmon

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 1:51 am

behappy2 wrote:

Are you suggesting that the Torah is outdated?

Did you tell your parents not to leave you an inheritance, according to Torah guidelines?

If not, why not? Do you think the Torah is outdated?

amother

Babypink

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 5:43 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Did you tell your parents not to leave you an inheritance, according to Torah guidelines?

If not, why not? Do you think the Torah is outdated?

Writing a will is no different to making a pruzbal by shmittah (otherwise no one owes you money) or selling chametz on Pesach. Which have been instituted as halachically accepted practices.

But, I don't think anyone is saying that veganism is outright against halacha anyway. The discussion just is whether this ideology jives with a Torah haskafa or not.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 5:50 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Exactly. It's not outright against halacha, and it 'jives with a Torah hashkafa' no less than other halachically accepted practices, such as dividing an inheritance according to modern Western norms of fairness.

amother

Babypink

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 5:53 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

According to you and others it does jive, but obviously there are those who think it doesn't. Comparing it to other widespread practices dating back generations isn't likely to change their minds.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 6:01 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

According to you and others it does jive, but obviously there are those who think it doesn't. Comparing it to other widespread practices dating back generations isn't likely to change their minds.

Time changes people's minds.
If you asked people 200 years ago if sending girls to high school, or splitting inheritances equally, or allowing young people to choose their own mates all 'jive with Torah hashkafa', they probably would have been appalled.

Those 'widespread practices dating back generations' are unrecognizable today.

Time changes what is accepted.

southernbubby

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 7:37 am

People of my grandparents generation never heard of animal rights but due to the Great Depression and subsequent war, bal tashgis (waste) was one of the biggest sins, other than marrying a non-Jew, that they could think of. Today we waste with abandon and it isn't a frum hashkafa to save the trees, the whales, or even our own budgets but I think that we are probably making a mistake.

cbsp

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 8:56 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

I don't follow blindly. Since there is no compulsory mitzva to eat meat, I can trust my own judgment here and just refrain from eating meat.

That's not how you phrased it earlier.

You stated:
"your friend, who refuses to eat freely laid eggs, is much more halachically correct than all the very 'frum' people who eat omelettes whose production required a dozen male chicks get ground up alive."

It is this sentiment that I strongly and loudly object to, in the name of it being motzi shem ra on Rabbonim (who are in kashrus) and most of klal Yisroel (who eat eggs).

behappy2

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 10:12 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

Did you tell your parents not to leave you an inheritance, according to Torah guidelines?

If not, why not? Do you think the Torah is outdated?

It's not because we have progressed beyond the Torah.

amother

Salmon

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 11:02 am

cbsp wrote:

The sentiment was mainly aimed at people who were saying vegans are anti - Torah. I just find that incredibly hypocritical, coming from people who cause animals endless tzaar baalei chaim.

I don't think most rabbanim consider veganism to be anti -Torah, so the hypocrisy and the sentiment do not apply to them.

In any case, I feel that this is an issue that will gain more awareness and more traction in the rabbinical world in the near future, certainly in Israel where the vegan population is growing by leaps and bounds.

Laiya

Sun, Aug 18 2019, 11:20 am

amother [ Salmon ] wrote:

I think the majority of people don't know about the tzaar baalei chaim that goes on.

However, even if / when this is eliminated, the vegans community will still not find it acceptable to use animals or animal products.