Thoughts on this? | Imamother

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Aug 29 2019, 2:41 pm

The Denmark study compared children who received vaccines except for the MMR vaccine to children who received vaccines including the MMR vaccine.

Why was this done, instead of comparing children who had received no vaccines compared to those who had received vaccines including the MMR vaccine?

1. Let's look at the question that most concerned parents after the publication of Wakefield's fraudulent article in 1998. Parents were not concerned about the dangers of vaccines in general. (That mishugas wasn't around then.) They were concerned in particular about the dangers of the MMR vaccine. The question was: "Is the MMR vaccine dangerous?" The way to answer that question was to compare a population of children receiving the MMR vaccine along with their regular vaccines, to a population of children receiving vaccines but not the MMR vaccine.

2. In general, when conducting an experiment, one wants to vary as little as possible between the test group and the control group, so one can pinpoint what has changed. Suppose you had two groups, A and B. You give A all the normal childhood vaccines. You give B all the normal childhood vaccines except for polio and MMR. If there would be differences between the two groups, you wouldn't know whether to attribute that to the MMR or the polio vaccine.

3. The anti-vaxxers are rejecting the Denmark study because they have, in their intellectual dishonestly, changed the question. They are now not asking "Is the MMR dangerous?" They are asking "Are vaccines dangerous?" But this was not the question that was being asked when the Denmark study was started.

4. In order to answer the "Are vaccines dangerous?" question, one could examine two groups, A and B, where A gets the standard set of vaccines and B gets no vaccines. It has taken the better part of two decades to answer the MMR question above, and it would be a lot harder to answer this. Since vaccines are voluntary in Denmark, perhaps they are currently embarking on a study of whether vaccines in general are safe. But if they do this retrospective study (it would obviously be immoral to do a prospective study), it may be 20 years or more to get answers back. There have been studies in the Philippines that show that vaccinated children are healthier and score higher on IQ tests than their unvaccinated counterparts, so there's that. I don't expect that there the vaccinated group would do worse by any measure, but in case it does, such a broad experiment wouldn't allow us to attribute a cause because so many variables (so many vaccines) would all be lumped together. If, as expected, the vaccinated group did better, the anti-vaxxers would argue that this was due to self-selection, that parents of children who tended to be sickly chose not to vax.

Let me put it this way: the intellectual dishonesty of the anti-vaxxers in response to the large Denmark study has convinced me that anti-vaxxers will never be satisfied. They don't want to be convinced. They just want to have an excuse not to vaccinate their children.

JoyInTheMorning

Thu, Aug 29 2019, 2:45 pm

So it will have been noted that my good online friend southernbubby incorrectly stated the set up of the Denmark study. Big deal. I am expecting #BestBubby to try to make hay out of this. Maybe, because I've noticed that BB, like a young child, doesn't seem to know the difference between lying and being incorrect, she will call southernbubby a liar.

Let me forestall that eventuality. Southernbubby has provided a great deal of wonderful information over the last year or so about vaccinations, always in a calm, friendly, non-confrontational, supportive manner. Kudos, southernbubby.

#BestBubby

Thu, Aug 29 2019, 7:53 pm

JoyintheMoringing, It would be very easy to see if vaccines cause autism, adhd, allergies, asthma, learning disabilities.

All you have to do is study a large group, say 10,000, of completely unvaccinated children.
See how many kids have autism, adhd, learning disabilities, allergies, asthma, etc.

If the rate is MUCH less than vaccinated kids - you will know that vaccines cause all these
chronic illnesses, disabilities.

IT IS VERY EASY TO SEE IF VACCINES CAUSE AUTISM, does not take 20 years, we can know immediately, but the government refuses to do it - because the government knows the truth - and is covering it up.

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 29 2019, 7:55 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Thanks!

southernbubby

Thu, Aug 29 2019, 7:59 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

So why does Poland, who vaccinates for everything that we do plus tuberculosis have such a low rate of autism and what are those poor people in Hong Kong doing wrong that 1 in 27 people there have autism?

freilich

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 10:15 am

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

I love your post because you are actually the first one on IMAmother that makes sense.
You are 100 right. The difference is that vaccines are mandated. Sono’s microwaves BpA unhealthty eating GMO food coloring etc etc are not mandated so if you decide to stay away from those nobody bothers you. With vaccines however, you are shushed up so fast if you dare suggest that it has toxins.
We live in a toxic society.
Personally, I do my utmost to stay away from toxins such as cellphones, microwaves, food coloring MSG and household chemicals. Even though many people consider this crazy it is my choice. I stayed away from vaccines too until the world turned crazy in 2018 and I realized that the same way I need wifi in 2018 I am also forced to vaccinate. There are things I chose to expose myself to such as wifi and cellphone radiation because I don’t see how I can live without it. I limit them more than others and turn them off at nigh but I chose to use it. I wasn’t forced and nobody suggested I should be killed.
I vaccinated when I realized that the world won’t let me live without it although my kids all attended school all these years without vaccines and nobody cared. They weren’t considered like they were infected with every virus before the outbreak. In November 2018 they suddenly started carrying every disease known to mankind so I chose to expose myself and them to this toxin and then detoxed like I did anytime after drugs. However, it doesn’t mean that vaccines don’t have side effects or aren’t toxic.
Let’s admit that they carry risk and we take the risk for whatever reason.
All drugs carry side effects. All household chemicals can have side effects and constant radiation can have side effects. There are constantly warning about painkillers and everyone uses it anyway. Doctors say they are safe. Study after study proves otherwise. There are so many news articles about roundup and its cancer causing effects and Trump said it doesnt cause cancer so eveeyone uses it anyway. Let’s admit that vaccines too can have side effects even if everyone does it anyway.
So yes I agree with you that vaccines aren’t to blame for our generation issues but they definitely are one of the reasons amongst others in our cellphone, wifi, GMO, pizza and fries generation.
I hope that makes more sense to you.

Liking wasn't enough!! Your a smart woman!

#BestBubby

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 11:26 am

amother [ Dodgerblue ] wrote:

It’s a legal statement. See the disclaimer in bold. “No casual relationship”

WRONG! The insert did NOT say "No causal relationship". This is what the insert said:

"Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia (diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and acellular pertussis vaccine) vaccine.2"

All the insert said is that a causal relationship is not PROVEN - not that it was DISPROVEN as you lied. Scientists hired by Tobacco Companies also used to shout: correlation does not prove causation". But Smoking DOES cause cancer. How was it PROVEN? With a
smoker vs non-smoker study. How do you prove vaccines cause autism?
With a Vaxxed vs UnVaxxed Study - which the CDC REFUSES to do - which is evidence the
CDC knows vaccines cause autism (and other chronic illnesses) and is COVERING IT UP!

#BestBubby

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 11:32 am

amother [ Bisque ] wrote:

So you recognize the dangers of vaccines but caved to the tyranny. There are 300+ NEW Vaccines in the pipeline. What will you do when the government will Force 300 MORE vaccines on everyone - children and adults? What will it take for people to wake up? Or will EVERYONE be brain injured and thus unable to protest?

nchr

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 12:36 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I'm not talking about forced vaccinations, but I'd love to see more vaccines, many of which may not be appropriate for everyone, everywhere, but here are some examples:
This world desperately needs a TB vaccine that can protect against MDR & XDR strains.
The world desperately need vaccines against AIDs and malaria. Ebola would be nice too.
We need an ever effective flu vaccine that recognizes minor changes annually.
I'd love to see an effect Lyme Disease vaccine, as well as vaccines against strep, staph and other bacteria. Against ecoli and other stomach viruses/bacteria like shigella as well.
We need vaccines that can train the body to recognize cancers and not allow them to spread.
What about a vaccine that would help us fight plague in arteries? Or against dementia?
We also need better vaccines for pertussis, because the acellular version, while more tolerable, is not as effective.
We also need vaccines that can be developed quickly in case of a pandemic of a zoonotic situation like avian flu.
We also need more vaccines for animals.
And seriously, I don't know what reality you live in, but severe reactions/injuries to vaccines are extremely rare (1 per 1 million or 3 million doses).

amother

Coral

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 12:43 pm

nchr wrote:

We also need some bitachon and trust in The One Above. Thinking vaccines as a solution to every medical issue shows an illusion of control and a hashkafically problematic kochi v'otzim yadi perspective.

nchr

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 5:01 pm

amother [ Coral ] wrote:

I'm not sure I even understand this post. Just because we have vaccines doesnt mean we lack bitachon. Do you think wanting to see a cure for cancer is a chesaron in bitachon? Or a medication for dementia? If anything, it's the anti vax hysteria which shows a total lack of bitachon and lack of trust in Hashem because it is people thinking.. if I don't do x, y and a then my child will be ok when in reality we have very little control but are BH in Hashem's hands..

nchr

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 5:03 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I have no problem with science trying to find cures and treatments.

I have a problem when government FORCES treatment on unwilling citizens. That is Tyranny.
And ALL treatment has risks. ALL!!!

The government cannot force you to vaccinate, and they should not be able to. You may be fined money, you may be sued if you negligently sicken another person (this is not specific to non vaxxers) and you may be denied services like medical insurance or public schooling, but you cannot be forced. I happen to not care of unvaxxed kids are in school, but it's not unconstitutional to take a different stance.

amother

Coral

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 5:09 pm

nchr wrote:

We are actually in scientists' hands when we choose to vaccinate. Manipulating our immune systems as if Hashem didn't take care of that already. Possibly solving some issues yet creating others.

Besides, both halachically and hashkafically cures and vaccines are not the same thing and don't pretend they are.

Notsobusy

Fri, Aug 30 2019, 5:10 pm

nchr wrote:

I 100% believe in vaccines, my kids are all vaccinated on schedule etc. But I don't think we can completely eradicate all diseases. I believe that until Moshiach comes Hashem will keep creating new disease instead of the ones that are eradicated by vaccines.

I do think scientists should keep trying to figure out new ways to prevent and cure diseases, because I believe that we have to do our hishtadlus. But I don't think humans will ever be able to wipe out all types of diseases and sicknesses, because if Hashem wants someone to get sick He knows how to make it happen.