Predaters at the Mikvah

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justanothermother

Tue, Jan 01 2008, 5:51 pm

I just posted this in another forum, and it got me remembering a question that came up a while ago.

Re: fathers and sons going to the mikvah together

Quote:

The Gemara in Masechet Pesachim (51) mentions the prohibition against going to the bathhouse with one's father, father-in-law, stepfather or brother-in-law (sister's husband). The reason for this prohibition is that seeing these relatives unclothed might lead to improper thoughts, as they are associated with a person's roots and close family. The Gemara also mentions that one should not go to the bathhouse with his Rabbi, as this would be disrespectful. Some communities, as the Gemara discusses, had the practice of forbidding going to the bathhouse with one's brother, as well, but the Gemara mentions that strictly speaking this is permissible. Only communities that have adopted such a practice must abide by this stringency.

I had mentioned to my husband that when DS was old enough for the mukvah, they should go together, as I have heard stories about predaters at the mikvah. DH told me about this halacha, and that he would not go with DS. Does anyone else have the same concerns? What do you do?

Edited to say - I wrote "on another forum" but I meant "on another thread"

Last edited by justanothermother on Wed, Jan 02 2008, 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total

chocolate moose

Tue, Jan 01 2008, 5:55 pm

The men, boys, and the Rabbonim do it, nonetheless; I understand ppl just don't look/stare.

louche

Tue, Jan 01 2008, 6:54 pm

Quote:

seeing these relatives unclothed might lead to improper thoughts, as they are associated with a person's roots and close family.

And seeing other ppl unclothed wouldn't?

lamplighter

Tue, Jan 01 2008, 7:04 pm

I believe nowadays pple do go with their children 4 the exact reason u cited. No need to bother with it now. when the time comes your Dh will talk it over with a competent rav.

Motek

Tue, Jan 01 2008, 7:38 pm

No reason why your son can't immerse while your husband is there, still dressed, so your husband can supervise.

pink car

Tue, Jan 01 2008, 8:28 pm

I'm one of the younger ones in my family, and I remember my younger brother always went with my older brothers - I don't remember my father taking any of my brothers

and then they went themselves from around 12...

amother

Tue, Jan 01 2008, 9:35 pm

son goes with dh and I HATE it!
I think it is so disrespectful and wonder how one can be lenient on it when in the written Torah it states specifically that a son should not uncover his father's nakedness
(and yes, Motek, while it is possible they could toivel at different times, my son is very young, so I doubt dh can be covered)
But "everyone" does it in our circles. I asked my mashpia and she said her rav said people are not machmir not to these days.

But why not? Can anyone explain this to me? Even if there is room to allow it (and I don't see the reasoning behind allowing it) it is so disrespectful for a son to see his father undressed! Remember the story about Noach!

This is a real test of shalom bayis. But my mashipa said not to question my husband, especially when it is the community standard. So I bite my tongue every Erev Shabbos.

So I can't ask him, but I am asking you ladies, on what basis can this possibly be allowed and why is it allowed?

Crayon210

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 1:22 am

Why are you asking us? Ask your rav.

mumoo

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 1:58 am

[quote="justanothermother"]

Quote:

The Gemara in Masechet Pesachim (51) mentions the prohibition against going to the bathhouse with one's father, father-in-law, stepfather or brother-in-law (sister's husband).

since we know one isn't chiyuv until Bar mitzvah, maybe these issurim don't apply to children. So a bar mitzvah shouldn't go with his father, etc, but it doesn't say a father shouldn't take his young son.

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 2:29 am

Crayon210 wrote:

Why are you asking us? Ask your rav.

my mashpia warned me against asking a rav something that would seem that I was second-guessing my husband...particularly because a psak permitting it was already given. But I wasn't given the reason and dh doesn't want to discuss it.

mumoo

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 3:09 am

asking the Rov for clarification doesn't undermine your husband. it makes you understand him better

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 3:49 am

Quote:

my mashpia warned me against asking a rav something that would seem that I was second-guessing my husband

I'm very surprized by this...A mashpia should never keep you from talking to your rav!

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 6:13 am

She asked me how I think he would feel If I called the Rav after he told me what the psak was as if I was checking up on him...(he has smicha)...I get her point..if you don't, then I guess it is just too hard to explain.

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 6:16 am

Me again...I mean if "everyone does it" there must be an explanation.and someone must know the explanation..why does this have to turn into a discussion about the issues people have with my masphia?

inwaiting

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 11:50 am

to the amother who said that she hates that her husband goes with her son to mikva.I dont understand why you even mix in in those things if you husband said it is okay than why do you even have to look in a gemara ..it looks like there is some trust problem with your husbant .so learn to trust him..and dont go asking for shailos that is non of your busines.

Apple pie

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 11:59 am

Excuse me inwaiting, amother's son is her business, Confused

and besides, she seemed davka very respecting of her dh...

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 12:01 pm

Quote:

Me again...I mean if "everyone does it" there must be an explanation.and someone must know the explanation..

OK so I asked my dh, he said, of course it says that a child shouldn't go with the father, but todays generation is different. He would never allow a young boy to go himself to the mikva! Unless he sees that the boy is old enough and mature enough- meaning he goes in and out, does what he has to and finished, without lounging around staring at other people- then he would allow them to go themselves.
So amother, for your childs own good, I dont think you should mix into this business.

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 4:09 pm

inwaiting wrote:

whew!!! see, damned if I dont' ask (from amother above), and damned if I ask...can't anyone give a reason without attacking me...I'm amother for a reason, you know...but that doesn't mean you have to be hostile.

amother

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 4:11 pm

Apple pie wrote:

Excuse me inwaiting, amother's son is her business, Confused

and besides, she seemed davka very respecting of her dh...

Thank you Apple pie!!!

Well, I think I'll just follow my mashpia and dh and continue to swallow...even though I really don't get why a four year old has to go to the mikveh at all...but now it is such an erev Shabbos routine that even if dh changed his mind, it would be really hard.

mammala120

Wed, Jan 02 2008, 5:38 pm

my husband also mentioned that it is not allowed for sons to see their father's privates.

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