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Forum
-> Children's Health
-> Vaccinations
southernbubby
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 Tue, Sep 03 2019, 9:33 am
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I just looked it up but don't know how to copy and paste. Carriers of diphtheria don't always show symptoms but once they are identified, they are treated with antibiotics. I did read in a couple of places that vaccinated people can carry the bacteria but won't get sick. Also there are several forms of diphtheria, including cutaneous.
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 9:45 am
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nchr
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 2:05 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | | You didn't address the fact that for pertussis and diptheria, vaccinated people can serve as silent carriers when exposed. This is why we're seeing a resurgence in whooping cough. |
This is, in part, one of the reasons why we need a better vaccine against pertussis. It is generally because since DTP was not well tolerated, we changed to the acellular version. It is also why pertussis vaccination is so important, especially for infants. There are no silent measles carriers, etc.
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 3:26 pm
| nchr wrote: | | This is, in part, one of the reasons why we need a better vaccine against pertussis. It is generally because since DTP was not well tolerated, we changed to the acellular version. It is also why pertussis vaccination is so important, especially for infants. There are no silent measles carriers, etc. |
All fine and dandy, but if you follow the conversation here, my objective was that herd immunity is not something we can ever accomplish with such diseases, and therefore should not be mandated for school attendance. You want to vaccinate your baby for protection against pertussis? Be my guest. But my child being vaccinated for pertussis will not protect your child or your baby.
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singleagain
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 3:28 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | | All fine and dandy, but if you follow the conversation here, my objective was that herd immunity is not something we can ever accomplish with such diseases, and therefore should not be mandated for school attendance. You want to vaccinate your baby for protection against pertussis? Be my guest. But my child being vaccinated for pertussis will not protect your child or your baby. |
Unless my child or baby is immunocompromised and cannot get the vaccine
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 3:42 pm
| singleagain wrote: | | Unless my child or baby is immunocompromised and cannot get the vaccine | False. Your immunocompromised baby is not safe from pertussis around vaccinated-for-pertussis people. That's what I'm saying here the last few posts. Nobody is addressing the fact that vaccinated people can be asymptomatic carriers, and thus more prone to spreading pertussis because they don't get sick, unlike unvaccinated people who get sick and stay home.
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southernbubby
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 3:50 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | | All fine and dandy, but if you follow the conversation here, my objective was that herd immunity is not something we can ever accomplish with such diseases, and therefore should not be mandated for school attendance. You want to vaccinate your baby for protection against pertussis? Be my guest. But my child being vaccinated for pertussis will not protect your child or your baby. |
That's why I wonder why it has never been brought to the attention of the lawmakers in Albany that there are a handful of vaccines that prevent illnesses from being spread at school and the rest, although valuable in saving lives, have no direct bearing on the ability to attend school without endangering fellow students.
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 4:01 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | | That's why I wonder why it has never been brought to the attention of the lawmakers in Albany that there are a handful of vaccines that prevent illnesses from being spread at school and the rest, although valuable in saving lives, have no direct bearing on the ability to attend school without endangering fellow students. |
I keep telling this to you (in different threads lol) that this bill was not about public health; they were only trying to convince you (and themselves) that it was. It's about furthering Pharma's agenda.
Lawmakers aren't informed about the specifics regarding vaccines. "Vaccines are safe and effective" is all they know. And yet they're the ones making the decision here without input from doctors, from actual public health consultants, even from their own constituents, the public sector. There were no hearings held before this bill was passed. Many of the State Assembly members expressed these concerns that they feel they don't have enough information to vote yes on it. And then Speaker Heastie got involved...
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southernbubby
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 5:40 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | I keep telling this to you (in different threads lol) that this bill was not about public health; they were only trying to convince you (and themselves) that it was. It's about furthering Pharma's agenda.
Lawmakers aren't informed about the specifics regarding vaccines. "Vaccines are safe and effective" is all they know. And yet they're the ones making the decision here without input from doctors, from actual public health consultants, even from their own constituents, the public sector. There were no hearings held before this bill was passed. Many of the State Assembly members expressed these concerns that they feel they don't have enough information to vote yes on it. And then Speaker Heastie got involved... |
Yeah but I don't believe that everything is about the big pharma agenda. Also if you want me to recognize you, post under your screen name.
Someone railroaded it but you might want to consider that it's someone other than big pharma. I wouldn't doubt that they had input from disgruntled citizens who were tired of the outbreak.
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 6:23 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | Yeah but I don't believe that everything is about the big pharma agenda. Also if you want me to recognize you, post under your screen name.
Someone railroaded it but you might want to consider that it's someone other than big pharma. I wouldn't doubt that they had input from disgruntled citizens who were tired of the outbreak. |
I don't expect you to recognize me. I need to protect my privacy.
Consider who stands to benefit from this law being passed, and you will know who the "Someone" is that railroaded it. Disgruntled citizens who are tired of the outbreak aren't informed. Lawmakers should be before passing laws. Laws cannot be passed punitively, without being thought through, and researched properly. This one was. Perhaps it was simply Gov. Cuomo who needed an "accomplishment" added to his legacy.
This was definitely political, as opposed to motivated by public health.
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Sebastian
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 6:36 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | I don't expect you to recognize me. I need to protect my privacy.
Consider who stands to benefit from this law being passed, and you will know who the "Someone" is that railroaded it. Disgruntled citizens who are tired of the outbreak aren't informed. Lawmakers should be before passing laws. Laws cannot be passed punitively, without being thought through, and researched properly. This one was. Perhaps it was simply Gov. Cuomo who needed an "accomplishment" added to his legacy.
This was definitely political, as opposed to motivated by public health. |
Cuomo initially didn't support and did not seem to be behind it. Sorry.
It was motivated by ppl. fed up with a measles outbreak that could've and should've ended sooner had anti vaxers cooperated. You reap what you sow.
It copied California's law which seems to be working for them. Seems thought through to me.
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southernbubby
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 6:39 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | I don't expect you to recognize me. I need to protect my privacy.
Consider who stands to benefit from this law being passed, and you will know who the "Someone" is that railroaded it. Disgruntled citizens who are tired of the outbreak aren't informed. Lawmakers should be before passing laws. Laws cannot be passed punitively, without being thought through, and researched properly. This one was. Perhaps it was simply Gov. Cuomo who needed an "accomplishment" added to his legacy.
This was definitely political, as opposed to motivated by public health. |
Okay, so that is more plausible than big pharma conspiracy theories because the 26,000 NY students who had REs existed before the outbreak so where was big pharma then?
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nchr
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 7:07 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | | All fine and dandy, but if you follow the conversation here, my objective was that herd immunity is not something we can ever accomplish with such diseases, and therefore should not be mandated for school attendance. You want to vaccinate your baby for protection against pertussis? Be my guest. But my child being vaccinated for pertussis will not protect your child or your baby. |
Not exactly. Let's say 70% of unvaccinated people will get sick and have a full viral load very capable of infecting someone else v. 20% of vaccinated people being healthy carriers with a partial viral load that needs more prolonged exposure to infect another person. So there is a concept of protection through vaccination, albeit not a perfect one.
A few years ago I was at a sheva brachos and a child, who had pertussis, was coughing all over me. I needed to visit an immune compromised individual, so my dr called the CDC who advised I take a dose of antibiotics to make sure I wouldn't be a carrier. So responsible doctors do address this.
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amother
Slategray
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 7:08 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | | Okay, so that is more plausible than big pharma conspiracy theories because the 26,000 NY students who had REs existed before the outbreak so where was big pharma then? |
It is also a way to protect more children against more diseases. So even if measles is the issue, pertussis is very dangerous and painful too so they protect kids against having bad infections...
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 7:37 pm
| Sebastian wrote: | Cuomo initially didn't support and did not seem to be behind it. Sorry.
It was motivated by ppl. fed up with a measles outbreak that could've and should've ended sooner had anti vaxers cooperated. You reap what you sow.
It copied California's law which seems to be working for them. Seems thought through to me. |
People fed up with a measles outbreak don't get to pass laws, while those who pass laws should be better educated regarding which vaccines help to prevent outbreaks - if their goal is to prevent future outbreaks. It is illogical to mandate vaccines that do nothing for herd immunity.
California's law was different than this one. And California legistlature debated long and hard about this, went back and created amendments, grandfathered in existing exemptions, and did not immediately go into effect.
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 7:40 pm
| southernbubby wrote: | | Okay, so that is more plausible than big pharma conspiracy theories because the 26,000 NY students who had REs existed before the outbreak so where was big pharma then? |
Waiting for an opportunity?
This bill was already brought up a couple of times previously. This was by far not the first attempt at passing this law. It was the hype of the media about the measles outbreak that allowed fear to take the place of logical and methodical law-making.
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amother
Pewter
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 7:42 pm
| nchr wrote: | Not exactly. Let's say 70% of unvaccinated people will get sick and have a full viral load very capable of infecting someone else v. 20% of vaccinated people being healthy carriers with a partial viral load that needs more prolonged exposure to infect another person. So there is a concept of protection through vaccination, albeit not a perfect one.
A few years ago I was at a sheva brachos and a child, who had pertussis, was coughing all over me. I needed to visit an immune compromised individual, so my dr called the CDC who advised I take a dose of antibiotics to make sure I wouldn't be a carrier. So responsible doctors do address this. |
Where do you take your percentages from?
I'm glad your doctor advised you on the right course of action, but how is this story relevant for children in school, who presumably don't know if someone coughed all over them?
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Sebastian
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 8:02 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | Where do you take your percentages from?
I'm glad your doctor advised you on the right course of action, but how is this story relevant for children in school, who presumably don't know if someone coughed all over them? |
a vaxed kid who has pertussis has a smaller viral load than an unvaxed kid with pertussis. It's relevant b/c she's explaining why it makes sense for Dtap to be mandated.
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amother
Black
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 8:05 pm
| amother [ Pewter ] wrote: | People fed up with a measles outbreak don't get to pass laws, while those who pass laws should be better educated regarding which vaccines help to prevent outbreaks - if their goal is to prevent future outbreaks. It is illogical to mandate vaccines that do nothing for herd immunity.
California's law was different than this one. And California legistlature debated long and hard about this, went back and created amendments, grandfathered in existing exemptions, and did not immediately go into effect. |
Are you talking about the NYC emergency legislation?
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amother
Seashell
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Tue, Sep 03 2019, 8:27 pm
| Sebastian wrote: | Cuomo initially didn't support and did not seem to be behind it. Sorry.
It was motivated by ppl. fed up with a measles outbreak that could've and should've ended sooner had anti vaxers cooperated. You reap what you sow.
It copied California's law which seems to be working for them. Seems thought through to me. |
cooperated?
did you see a single pamphlet explaining the importance of isolating yourself during an outbreak if you have certain symptoms?
I didn't. I would've cooperated gladly with that
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