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Ex-vaxxer what will do now?
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:46 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
The link nchr posted quite disagrees with your assessment. I'd love if you could provide a source for your take on this.


I have read through the links that nchr posted and the links that amother magenta posted. They do not support what you are saying.

Even for the acellular pertussis vaccine, where it seems clear that there are many asymptomatic carriers, there is no greater risk of transmitting pertussis if one is vaccinated than if one is not vaccinated. I haven't found anything that says what you are claiming.

I know anti-vaxxers claim that acquiring the disease confers lifetime immunity, which if it were true would mean, eventually, fewer carriers. But this is not the case for pertussis. Even with naturally-acquired pertussis (as opposed to the vaccine), immunity wanes after around seven years. Moreover, regarding your claim that a person sick with pertussis knows to stay home, this is in fact not true for pertussis. Adults with pertussis typically do not have the "whoop" that is characteristic of a child with pertussis. Instead, they have a dry, hacking cough that goes on for weeks or months. Nobody's staying home when they have a dry, hacking cough, especially when it can last so long.

Long term, the solution could be to give boosters of aP very frequently. (Tdap boosters are currently recommended every 5-10 years, but I'm not sure most adults get them that often. I get them frequently because I'm a klutz, injure myself often, and wind up needing tetanus shots, so I get the "dap" part along with the "T" part.) Or the solution could be to give the wP vaccines to people once they're old enough to not suffer the negative effects of whole pertussis vaccines.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 5:15 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
I have read through the links that nchr posted and the links that amother magenta posted. They do not support what you are saying.

Even for the acellular pertussis vaccine, where it seems clear that there are many asymptomatic carriers, there is no greater risk of transmitting pertussis if one is vaccinated than if one is not vaccinated. I haven't found anything that says what you are claiming.

I know anti-vaxxers claim that acquiring the disease confers lifetime immunity, which if it were true would mean, eventually, fewer carriers. But this is not the case for pertussis. Even with naturally-acquired pertussis (as opposed to the vaccine), immunity wanes after around seven years. Moreover, regarding your claim that a person sick with pertussis knows to stay home, this is in fact not true for pertussis. Adults with pertussis typically do not have the "whoop" that is characteristic of a child with pertussis. Instead, they have a dry, hacking cough that goes on for weeks or months. Nobody's staying home when they have a dry, hacking cough, especially when it can last so long.

Long term, the solution could be to give boosters of aP very frequently. (Tdap boosters are currently recommended every 5-10 years, but I'm not sure most adults get them that often. I get them frequently because I'm a klutz, injure myself often, and wind up needing tetanus shots, so I get the "dap" part along with the "T" part.) Or the solution could be to give the wP vaccines to people once they're old enough to not suffer the negative effects of whole pertussis vaccines.

I didn't say vaccinated have a greater risk of transmitting pertussis. I said they are MORE LIKELY to do so, given that they are asymptomatic. I'd like to think that adults with a dry hacking cough will avoid being around babies and immuno-compromised individuals, even if not stay home.

I still haven't seen a source that shows as you and nchr claimed that vaccinated silent carriers have a lower percentage of exposing others.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 5:39 am
I thought that there was a monovalent tetanus toxoid booster that was used to treat injuries. I would certainly want to be given the choice to get three for the price of one if the trivalent vaccine was appropriate for my age. (My insurance covers required vaccines but maybe not ones needed for travel).
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amother




Black


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 5:54 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
I didn't say vaccinated have a greater risk of transmitting pertussis. I said they are MORE LIKELY to do so, given that they are asymptomatic. I'd like to think that adults with a dry hacking cough will avoid being around babies and immuno-compromised individuals, even if not stay home.

I still haven't seen a source that shows as you and nchr claimed that vaccinated silent carriers have a lower percentage of exposing others.


This is the problem with your analysis.

The asymptomatic person has to transmit the bacteria somehow. A sneeze, a cough, something. (**if anyone is aware of another mechanism, please share**)

A person who will develop full blown pertussis will, before they are crazy coughing also sneeze and cough.

Is one transmitting the bacteria and not the other?
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 6:03 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
This is the problem with your analysis.

The asymptomatic person has to transmit the bacteria somehow. A sneeze, a cough, something.

A person who will develop full blown pertussis will, before they are crazy coughing also sneeze and cough.

Is one transmitting the bacteria and not the other?


My understanding in regards to asymptomatic puertussis is that there are symptoms of a mild respiratory illness that doesn't prevent the person from going about his or her routine and the affected person thinks "it's just a cold". They are not completely asymptomatic, just not what would lead them to believe that it is more than a mild cold.
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amother




Gray


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 6:16 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
PANDAS comes from untreated strep, not from vaxxing. How do you know that all or most of the symptoms your child is suffering from do not come from PANDAS?

This is the major issue many of us have with vaccine injury stories. It's not that we discount the symptoms you see in your children. It's that we believe there are many other possible causes. The symptoms I hear reported are consistent with PANDAS. In my experience, strep is often under treated. I've had doctors miss the diagnosis because the rapid strep test didn't pick it up. The sensitivity rate is only 90-95%. And I know crazy crunchy types who refuse to take their kids to the doctor when they have sore throats because they don't want to give their kids antibiotics.

I hope your child improves. But I'd encourage you to seek out treatment for PANDAS, even if it does involve more antibiotics and other allopathic remedies.

Edited to add: A lot of the symptoms you describe are also consistent with untreated Lyme disease.


You don’t have untreated strep as an infant.
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 6:22 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:

I still haven't seen a source that shows as you and nchr claimed that vaccinated silent carriers have a lower percentage of exposing others.


I posted two.... see below.

nchr wrote:
aP vaccinated infected people are less efficient at transmitting B. pertussis compared with unvaccinated infected people, though it is not clear to what extent

Warfel JM, Merkel TJ. Reply to Domenech de Cellès et al.: infection and transmission of pertussis in the baboon model. Proc Natl Acad Sci.; 111:718. [PMC free article] [PubMed]


and this also addresses the concept: "aP vaccines would render infected individuals less contagious, even if they do not induce resistance to infection among those who were exposed"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....0413/
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amother




Black


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 6:24 am
southernbubby wrote:
My understanding in regards to asymptomatic puertussis is that there are symptoms of a mild respiratory illness that doesn't prevent the person from going about his or her routine and the affected person thinks "it's just a cold". They are not completely asymptomatic, just not what would lead them to believe that it is more than a mild cold.


And a person who will have puertussis will go from 0 to hacking cough?
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 6:24 am
amother [ Gray ] wrote:
You don’t have untreated strep as an infant.


PANDAS is associated with Strep. It's not a broad term that describes multiple conditions. That is what the S in PANDAS stands for...

"Pediatric Autoimmune Neuropsychiatric Disorders Associated with Streptococcal infections..."

ETA: Sorry, I thought you were saying he had PANDAS from something other than strep. Actually, infants can have strep infections that become a problem, even though for most they do not.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 7:41 am
nchr wrote:

We're going in circles because the link you posted does not state what you say it is. The ncbi link is proving that the resurgence of pertussis is not because of lack of effectiveness and not because of waning immunity but because of asymptomatic carriers. I don't know where you see anything else there but if you'd like to cut and paste specific parts (NOT from the introduction where they're setting forth the hypothesis), I will take another look at it.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 7:52 am
amother [ Black ] wrote:
And a person who will have puertussis will go from 0 to hacking cough?


Sorry for my misspelling. My understanding is that a non-immune person will get pertussis while the person with some immunity will get a mild form of it.
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amother




Black


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 8:00 am
southernbubby wrote:
Sorry for my misspelling. My understanding is that a non-immune person will get pertussis while the person with some immunity will get a mild form of it.


The point that Pewter was making was that a person who has taken the vaccination is more 'dangerous' than the person who has not - because of asymptomatic transmission. I disagree with her logic.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 8:21 am
https://www.wkbw.com/news/loca.....jWdPY

This is what bad law looks like. I am so %&$# mad that medical decisions are in the hands of the principal/school district and that everyone is washing themselves of the responsibility. Politicians justified the law because of a measles outbreak, but where's the plan to actually make it work???
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 8:30 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
https://www.wkbw.com/news/loca.....jWdPY

This is what bad law looks like. I am so %&$# mad that medical decisions are in the hands of the principal/school district and that everyone is washing themselves of the responsibility. Politicians justified the law because of a measles outbreak, but where's the plan to actually make it work???


The school district claims to be following a directive from the health department. I am not sure why the health department wants to override the doctor.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 8:37 am
southernbubby wrote:
The school district claims to be following a directive from the health department. I am not sure why the health department wants to override the doctor.
No, not a directive, a recommendation. The last line of DOH's letter is that the matter is up to the principal to decide. (Makes sense to you???) Then again, I understand that the school district wouldn't want to go against a recommendation from the DOH.

That's my point. Everyone is washing themselves of responsibility, and it's the children who are suffering.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 9:21 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
No, not a directive, a recommendation. The last line of DOH's letter is that the matter is up to the principal to decide. (Makes sense to you???) Then again, I understand that the school district wouldn't want to go against a recommendation from the DOH.

That's my point. Everyone is washing themselves of responsibility, and it's the children who are suffering.


I couldn't make it big enough to read clearly but I agree that nobody should override the doctor.
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amother




Chocolate


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 9:24 am
amother [ Pewter ] wrote:
https://www.wkbw.com/news/loca.....jWdPY

This is what bad law looks like. I am so %&$# mad that medical decisions are in the hands of the principal/school district and that everyone is washing themselves of the responsibility. Politicians justified the law because of a measles outbreak, but where's the plan to actually make it work???



So maybe instead of fighting about religious exemptions that turned into personal belief exemptions in disguise, we should all work together to reform the medical exemption process to protect those who need it most
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 9:53 am
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
So maybe instead of fighting about religious exemptions that turned into personal belief exemptions in disguise, we should all work together to reform the medical exemption process to protect those who need it most


I agree.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Tue, Oct 08 2019, 12:41 pm
amother [ Chocolate ] wrote:
So maybe instead of fighting about religious exemptions that turned into personal belief exemptions in disguise, we should all work together to reform the medical exemption process to protect those who need it most

Go ahead. What will *you* do about it?
Did you know that the guidelines for medical exemptions were actually tightened in August, after the passing the repeal law? There's nobody home, nobody listening. Everyone shoves the responsibility of individuals off to everyone else and does "their job" to "follow the law" to protect "the public", which is made up of individuals who are suffering.

I honestly don't know what it will take for people to wake up and smell the coffee.
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amother




Pewter


Post  Wed, Oct 16 2019, 8:14 am
OP, I'm not sure if you're still around, but for anyone else that this is applicable, here's a link to a new facebook group of people who were denied medical exemptions in NYS.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/464998317432599/
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