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Forum -> Children's Health -> Vaccinations
To the anti vaxers, did you vaccinate?
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amother
Wheat


 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:11 pm
Absolutely not!
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:13 pm
The Jewish Religious Exemption was legitimate.
There is a mitzvah to "Very much, Guard your Life/Health"

If you are certain that vaccines are dangerous, you cannot vax.

If you are certain that vaccines protect health, you must vax.

The Mitzvah depends on what one believes.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:15 pm
tryinghard wrote:
One clarification on the religious exemption thing:
An attorney I know who was very involved in this issue explained it this way -
Schools are required to maintain vaccination records, and get in trouble if records aren’t in compliance. The religious exemption was supposed to allow the SCHOOL to remain in compliance if they chose to allow an exempt student to attend. However, the intent of the exemption was never to FORCE schools to accept students they would otherwise exclude - but that is what it evolved into: a blunt-force weapon to coerce schools.
A principal should be able to say, “You don’t want to vaccinate your child? Your choice. But I don’t need to allow them into my school. You feel vaccinations endanger your child’s life, but I feel just as strongly that unvaccinated children endanger other children as well as their families and teachers and I do not want that in my school. There may be some children who are medically fragile, immuno-compromised, etc - and it’s for their sake as well that we need to have everyone else vaccinated. The fewer unvaccinated individuals, the safer the entire community is.”

Religious exemptions came along and schools were it permitted to say that - and ludicrously, it was on the basis of religion, so that a religious institution was being told by someone of their own religion that that religion doesn’t allow it! And as was stated before, most REs were really “I am against it”. And even though you can find religious things to back it up after the fact, there is religious freedom of the institution that is now being infringed upon as well. Because doubtless those institutions would claim its against their religion to allow a few to endanger the rest!

So basically, something that was originally intended to ALLOW schools to do something they wanted to, turned into something that FORCED schools to do something they didn’t want to do.


I skimmed and caught a bit of what u mentioned here. RE was allowed to be accepted or denied by school if they didnt think the religious belief was sincere. However, if the RE was written CORRECTLY with SINCERE religious belief according to the guidelines, RE users who want to challenge the schools decision is allowed to take the school to court and fight it out. That is why you cant just say "I dont vaccinate because of my religion". There was a very specific way of going about it.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:16 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I just read Rabbi Green's article. He is forgetting how unprepared American society is for diseases that haven't been experienced in America in 2 or 3 generations. He can't cut a fearful public a little slack?


Im sure Rabbi Green would be happy to address your points. Why dont you send him a nice email and ask him about that?
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:22 pm
southernbubby wrote:
If parents send mildly ill kids to school, shul, or day care, it often turns out to be something contagious and sometimes more serious.


People who knew they were exposed kept their kids home with symptoms of colds. People intentionally went to their houses to try catch the measles, not all were successful (heh, not that contagious after all) because this was their ticket back into school once recovered.

Are you implying that only non vaccinated kids come to school sick? Mind you, when my child was in playgroup, I kept her home with every heavy cough, slight fever, cold etc. When I would come many times I saw kids with stuff dripping out of their noses and coughing on everything and they never really missed days. No wonder my daughter always came home sick. As soon as I pulled her out and she was at home, no more getting sick.

This still doesnt explain what pulled you out of your corner.

Those who lost immunity (unknowingly) from the vaccine actually assumed they were fine with a slight cough or sneeze because 'no way could it be measles' and actually were in school and continued to spread disease to those who didnt get full immunity from vaccine. Vaccines are NOT 100% effective. Many ppl , not all, checked titers and were not immune, even after numerous vaccine. Yet Blimi Marcus always says VERY EFFECTIVE.. who should I laugh at now?
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:22 pm
southernbubby wrote:
While I am as pro modern medicine as they come, a poster on another thread pointed out that even if you view anti-vaxers as the biggest fools on earth, when the government attempts to limit or infringe on religious expression, it will ultimately infringe on beliefs that we do consider important.


THANK YOU!

I believe the Democrats are attacking Religious Rights and Parental Rights and because of UnVaxxed Kid Phobia, were successful in taking away Parental Rights and Religious Rights regarding vaccination.

But the Democratic Socialists are going after destroying Yeshivas, there have been attempts against Bris Milah and other Socialist countries have abolished Shechitah.

That is why Pro-Vaxxers should have supported Religious Rights and Parental Rights.

Simcha Felder and Simcha Eichenstein are Pro-Vaxxers who voted AGAINST taking away Religious Exemptions because they recognized this will weaken ALL religious rights.
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amother
Fuchsia


 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:26 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Also it is very hard for anyone to find unbiased information about the safety of vaccines and rely on the fact that the average person doesn't appear to be harmed by them.
Can anyone post links about what the Rebbe said about vaccines because I have seen various quotes taken out of context.


I tried attaching picture of what rebbe said on drs not having time to research but I dont know how to here. Im happy to email you from my anon email address and if you know how to upload it, feel free to.

Please look up any letter from Igros regarding vaccines, after any statement it always says to make sure maufacturer is reliable and safety tested. I dont have any letters handy but can try looking them up.
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yehupitz




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:26 pm
southernbubby wrote:
Also it is very hard for anyone to find unbiased information about the safety of vaccines and rely on the fact that the average person doesn't appear to be harmed by them.
Can anyone post links about what the Rebbe said about vaccines because I have seen various quotes taken out of context.


https://www.chabad.org/therebb.....s.htm
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:27 pm
Public Schools HAD to accept kids with a Religious Exemption.

But Private Schools are allowed to pick which kids they accept and are allowed
to exclude Religious Exemption.

For around 50 years, unvaxxed children attended school and yeshivas NOBODY was concerned.

It was Government Propaganda who whipped up UnVaxxed-Kid-Phobia.

If people are unafraid to go in cars that KILL 40,000 a year and PERMANENTLY INJURE 2 million a year, it is RIDICULOUS to be afraid of unvaxxed kids where the alleged danger is so minute.
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amother
Mustard


 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:31 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Public Schools HAD to accept kids with a Religious Exemption.

But Private Schools are allowed to pick which kids they accept and are allowed
to exclude Religious Exemption.


For around 50 years, unvaxxed children attended school and yeshivas NOBODY was concerned.

It was Government Propaganda who whipped up UnVaxxed-Kid-Phobia.

If people are unafraid to go in cars that KILL 40,000 a year and PERMANENTLY INJURE 2 million a year, it is RIDICULOUS to be afraid of unvaxxed kids where the alleged danger is so minute.


Nope. https://www.theyeshivaworld.co......html

And I can tell you there were a lot of teachers, parents and students who weren't happy about having unvaxed kids in the school.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:33 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Then people need to be honest players and not abuse the religious exemption to service their own personal convictions.

the positions ----- "the government should give us choice regarding what we inject our children with" and "the government shouldn't be able to dictate how many hours a day of secular study we teach our children" ------ do not infringe on Judaism unless the content of the secular education, or the content of the shots isn't 'kosher'.

They are both statements about the relationship between the government and its citizens.


Wrong. There is a Mitzvah to "Exceedingly Guard Your Life/Health".

One who is certain that vaccines are dangerous are not allowed to vax - that is
THEIR Mitzvah.

One who believes that vaccines protect health Must Vax - that is THEIR Mitzvah.

Giving children a Proper Chinuch is also a Mitzvah in the Torah - not a personal belief.
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tryinghard




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:38 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Public Schools HAD to accept kids with a Religious Exemption.

But Private Schools are allowed to pick which kids they accept and are allowed
to exclude Religious Exemption.


WRONG.

Yeshiva of Spring Valley (Monsey school) fought this battle in 2010 and lost.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:40 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
Where is religion in the statement "I am against this"?

That's a statement of personal protest.


IMHO its preferable to remove the religious exemption, then push the state to be interpreters of what a religion does or does not permit.... because it wouldn't end well.


The Constitution grants Freedom of Religion, not Freedom of ORGANIZED Religion.

That means a person's PERSONAL religious beliefs are protected, whether or not an organized religion agrees.

The separation of church and state (not in the constitution but in supreme court decisions) does not permit the government to arbitrate what is a legitimate religious belief. It is sufficient that an INDIVIDUAL claim something is their religious belief.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:43 pm
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
This section shall not apply to children whose parent,
parents, or guardian holds genuine and sincere religious
beliefs which are contrary to the practices herein required,
and no certificate shall be required as a prerequisite to such
children being admitted or received into school or attending
school.


Are you suggesting to me that Torah Jews can have more than one sincere religious belief?


Actually there are DIFFERENCES among Torah Jews. Some eat gebrochts, some don't.

There is a Mitzvah to "Exceedingly Guard Your Life/Health". How one fulfills this mitzvah depends on whether one believes Vaccines are Beneficial or Harmful.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 12:59 pm
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
People who knew they were exposed kept their kids home with symptoms of colds. People intentionally went to their houses to try catch the measles, not all were successful (heh, not that contagious after all) because this was their ticket back into school once recovered.

Are you implying that only non vaccinated kids come to school sick? Mind you, when my child was in playgroup, I kept her home with every heavy cough, slight fever, cold etc. When I would come many times I saw kids with stuff dripping out of their noses and coughing on everything and they never really missed days. No wonder my daughter always came home sick. As soon as I pulled her out and she was at home, no more getting sick.

This still doesnt explain what pulled you out of your corner.

Those who lost immunity (unknowingly) from the vaccine actually assumed they were fine with a slight cough or sneeze because 'no way could it be measles' and actually were in school and continued to spread disease to those who didnt get full immunity from vaccine. Vaccines are NOT 100% effective. Many ppl , not all, checked titers and were not immune, even after numerous vaccine. Yet Blimi Marcus always says VERY EFFECTIVE.. who should I laugh at now?


I never said that only anti-vaxers send sick kids out in public it just has a bigger impact during an outbreak regardless of who does it. The more people who are not immune, the greater the impact.
There was a lot about the way vaccines work that was previously not understood before the outbreak including the level of danger to pregnant women with low titers.
You also have to take into consideration that the online face of anti-vax was not those who had bad experiences but those who were had bought into propaganda and junk science.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 1:01 pm
tryinghard wrote:
WRONG.

Yeshiva of Spring Valley (Monsey school) fought this battle in 2010 and lost.


Since I am a Libertarian at heart, I believe PRIVATE schools have a right to exclude anybody they want.

I also believe PRIVATE business have a right to exclude anybody they want, unless they are selling essentials and there is no other business provider in the area.

Very opposed to government FORCING people to provide wedding services for
Homosexual "weddings". This is a threat to Orthodox caterers, florists, photographers, etc. as well.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 1:07 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I never said that only anti-vaxers send sick kids out in public it just has a bigger impact during an outbreak regardless of who does it. The more people who are not immune, the greater the impact.
There was a lot about the way vaccines work that was previously not understood before the outbreak including the level of danger to pregnant women with low titers.
You also have to take into consideration that the online face of anti-vax was not those who had bad experiences but those who were had bought into propaganda and junk science.


This is one of the reasons why people oppose vaccines - it shifts the risk of measles
from people who are the LEAST vulnerable to people who are the MOST vulnerable.

Before vaccine, measles was primarily caught by school age childrenwho are the LEAST vulnerable to complications. These children then had LIFE LONG immunity which vaccines DONT give.

Pregnant mothers had ZERO risk of measles because they had PERMANENT immunity.
Newborn babies had low risk because mothers passed along their antibodies to the babies in utero and through nursing. Vaccinated Mothers cannot pass antibodies to their babies.

It was Vaccines that shifted the risk of measles from schoolchildren to pregnant mothers and babies. Doesn't sound smart to me, but Pharmaceutical Industry is making Billions $$$


Last edited by #BestBubby on Mon, Sep 02 2019, 1:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 1:08 pm
yehupitz wrote:
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/2307891/jewish/Part-I-Chapter-XI-Medications-and-Vaccines.htm


Thanks, obviously many of us trust the manufacturers because most people in American society are vaccinated and an entire generation was free of measles and most people are relatively healthy. There are obviously people on both sides of believing in the integrity of the product and research.
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southernbubby




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 1:14 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
This is one of the reasons why people oppose vaccines - it shifts the risk of measles
from people who are the LEAST vulnerable to people who are the MOST vulnerable.

Before vaccine, measles was primarily caught by school age childrenwho are the LEAST vulnerable to complications. These children then had LIFE LONG immunity which vaccines DONT give.

Pregnant mothers had ZERO risk of measles because they had PERMANENT immunity.
Newborn babies had low risk because mothers passed along their antibodies to the babies in utero and through nursing. Vaccinated Mothers cannot pass antibodies to their babies.

It was Vaccines that shifted the risk of measles from schoolchildren to pregnant mothers and babies. Doesn't sound smart to me, but Pharmaceutical Industry is making Billions $$$


Monday morning quarterbacking won't help any pregnant woman now. The fact that many soldiers contracted measles during the civil war indicates that it was often contracted after the ideal age and possibly before as we.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Sep 02 2019, 1:34 pm
yehupitz wrote:
https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/letters/default_cdo/aid/2307891/jewish/Part-I-Chapter-XI-Medications-and-Vaccines.htm


It's quite clear from the context that the Rebbe was confident that US-manufactured vaccines were safe. I'd be interested to know when this was written, but it should be noted that at various times when the Rebbe was heading the Lubavitch community, US-manufactured vaccines were more dangerous than they are now. (DTP, IPV, and smallpox vaccines all had much greater adverse effects than any of the vaccines around now, even in combination.) Still the Rebbe expressed confidence.
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