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To the anti vaxers, did you vaccinate?
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:26 am
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
this was interesting. https://www.newyorker.com/maga.....asles as was https://www.wired.com/story/fe.....klyn/


Here is a paragraph from your second article:

She [pro-vaccine nurse] told the women how, in 1993, Japan suspended the use of MMR vaccines because of concern about the mumps portion of the vaccine then being used in that country. But during the time in which the vaccine’s use dropped to zero, autism rates kept rising. When Marcus showed the women a graph of the two trends moving in opposite directions, several of them gasped. “That was it for most people in the room,” Marcus says.

So the Pro-Vaccine Nurse shows women how when Japan stopped the MMR Vaccine, the Autism Rate went UP! The Women gasped - they were convinced this is proof that vaccines don't cause Autism.

BUT, the Pro-Vaccine Nurse didn't tell the women, that when the MMR was stopped, it was replaced by THREE separate vaccines. So all the study proved is that three separate vaccines cause more autism than MMR.

Do you see the FRAUD, the MISINFORMATION of the Pro Vaxxers?
The women were not told that the MMR was replaced by three other vaccines.
The women were just told MMR was stopped and Autism Rates went up.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 3:14 am
amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:
What makes you think so?

[That Pharmaceutical Industry bribes (donates) state officials to take away religious exemptions]

Drug companies donated millions to California lawmakers before vaccine debate

Critics of Senate Bill 277, which would eliminate the personal belief and religious exemptions for schoolchildren, accuse the measure’s supporters in the Legislature of doing the bidding of donors who make vaccines and other pharmaceuticals....Pharmaceutical companies and their trade groups gave more than $2 million to current members of the Legislature in 2013-2014, about 2 percent of the total raised, records show. Nine of the top 20 recipients are either legislative leaders or serve on either the Assembly or Senate health committees. Receiving more than $95,000, the top recipient of industry campaign cash is Sen. Richard Pan, a Sacramento Democrat and doctor who is carrying the vaccine bill.

In addition, the industry donated more than $500,000 to outside campaign spending groups that helped elect some current members last year.

Leading pharmaceutical companies also spent nearly $3 million more during the 2013-2014 legislative session lobbying the Legislature, the governor, the state pharmacists’ board and other agencies, according to state filings.


Read more here: https://www.sacbee.com/news/po.....k=cpy
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:48 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Here is a paragraph from your second article:

She [pro-vaccine nurse] told the women how, in 1993, Japan suspended the use of MMR vaccines because of concern about the mumps portion of the vaccine then being used in that country. But during the time in which the vaccine’s use dropped to zero, autism rates kept rising. When Marcus showed the women a graph of the two trends moving in opposite directions, several of them gasped. “That was it for most people in the room,” Marcus says.

So the Pro-Vaccine Nurse shows women how when Japan stopped the MMR Vaccine, the Autism Rate went UP! The Women gasped - they were convinced this is proof that vaccines don't cause Autism.

BUT, the Pro-Vaccine Nurse didn't tell the women, that when the MMR was stopped, it was replaced by THREE separate vaccines. So all the study proved is that three separate vaccines cause more autism than MMR.

Do you see the FRAUD, the MISINFORMATION of the Pro Vaxxers?
The women were not told that the MMR was replaced by three other vaccines.
The women were just told MMR was stopped and Autism Rates went up.


Where are your sources for this? The MMR was stopped in Japan because the mumps component of the vaccine was contaminated and could cause aseptic meningitis; it did so in around 1 out of 900 vaccine recipients. [ETA: You can find the 1/900 figure at https://www.vaccineconfidence......cine/ Previous link was to Korean study: https://academic.oup.com/aje/a.....89915 )

Japan did not replace the mandatory MMR with three mandatory separate vaccines. Besides separating the components of the MMR into separate vaccines, it stopped mandating vaccines entirely after 1993. Vaccination rates fell. So vaccination rates fell in Japan; yet autism rose. What Blimi Marcus said was absolutely true.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....4286/


Last edited by JoyInTheMorning on Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 5:20 am
And by the way, in addition to rising rates of autism once vaccines were no longer mandatory, do you know what else happened? Increasing rates of measles, with dire consequences. For example, in 1998-1999, there were 2034 cases of measles in Okinawa, and 8 deaths, mostly in infants. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....4286/
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 5:25 am
The irony of not vaccinating for mumps: A greater incidence of meningitis.

Mumps vaccination is not strongly encouraged in Japan. As a result, there were almost 2 million cases of mumps in Japan between 2000 and 2015. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....3105/
The incidence of aseptic meningitis from mumps is about 15%, which means one can expect that around 294,450 cases of aseptic meningitis resulted from the mumps during that time period.

-- Even if Japan had stuck with the contaminated MMR
-- and even if every person in Japan had received that contaminated vaccine,
-- at a 1 out of 900 risk of getting meningitis, around 142,000 people would have contracted meningitis (if Japan had stuck with the contaminated vaccine)
-- In contrast, in reality, with a low vaccination rate, more than 294,000 people got meningitis from the mumps.

But of course, the number of vaccine injuries from contaminated MMR would never have reached 142K because all they had to do was pull the contaminated vaccine from the market and substitute a non-contaminated version.

This is a perfect example of how dropping mandatory vaccines causes much more serious health issues than sticking with even a flawed vaccine.

Do a little arithmetic, ladies. It's your friend.
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amother




Mustard


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:19 am
I could invent a retroactive study in my classroom if you want! In my (last year's) classroom of 20 kids, 100% of unvaxed children had seasonal allergies while only 44% of vaxed students did.

(Don't worry, I know my sample size is no where near big enough and the research is super flawed)
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:25 am
amother [ Mustard ] wrote:
I could invent a retroactive study in my classroom if you want! In my (last year's) classroom of 20 kids, 100% of unvaxed children had seasonal allergies while only 44% of unvaxed students did.

(Don't worry, I know my sample size is no where near big enough and the research is super flawed)


There's got to be a typo there; you say "unvaxed" for both groups.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:29 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
Where are your sources for this? The MMR was stopped in Japan because the mumps component of the vaccine was contaminated and could cause aseptic meningitis; it did so in around 1 out of 900 vaccine recipients. https://academic.oup.com/aje/a.....9915.

Japan did not replace the mandatory MMR with three mandatory separate vaccines. Besides separating the components of the MMR into separate vaccines, it stopped mandating vaccines entirely after 1993. Vaccination rates fell. So vaccination rates fell in Japan; yet autism rose. What Blimi Marcus said was absolutely true.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....4286/



1. Wrong. Measles and Rubella were still mandatory, only Mumps was voluntary. This is stated in the study: "Following a reform of the Immunization Law in 1994, measles and rubella vaccinations were each specified for children between the ages of 12 and 90 months ... The mumps vaccination was voluntary"

2. Per the Study, after MMR was introduced the vaccination rate fell sharply because so many children were vaccine injured - as you stated by aseptic meningitis.
1988 - 70% were vaccinated
1989 - 43%
1990 - 34%
1991 - 24%
1992 - 2%

1994 - Three separate vaccines replaced the MMR

If you look at the chart on Figure 2 you will see that Autism went sharply UP after MMR was introduced in 1998, Autism went DOWN when MMR vaccination rates dropped, then Autism went UP again - after THREE Vaccines were introduced in 1994 (Measles, Mumps, Rubella - given separately, 4 weeks apart).

So the Chart in the study actually shows the OPPOSITE of what the authors claimed! The Chart shows when MMR was introduced, Autism went up, when people stopped vaccinating, Autism went down and when 3 separate vaccines replaced the MMR, autism went back up again!

Nowhere in the study does it state that the vaccination rate fell as you claim. You were wrong that Japan stopped mandating vaccines - only mumps were voluntary, but the other two vaccines were mandatory.

This is not my observation but what other scientists have said in reviewing this study.

So what Blimi Marcus told the women was absolutely FALSE. Yes, autism went up after MMR was withdrawn - because it was replaced with THREE separate vaccines instead. Blimi Marcus Never told the women that MMR was replaced with 3 separate vaccines - so what she said is a Lie.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:50 am; edited 2 times in total
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:33 am
#BestBubby wrote:


I tried the links from your post. They worked for me. You might need to make sure you don't copy and paste the period that follows the link. Or check your firewall settings or try from another computer.

ETA: However, I appear to have copied and pasted the wrong link for the Pubmed article I wanted to link. (I linked to a Korean study instead.) I'll need to get to this a bit later to get to the right Pubmed article, but in the meantime, it's fairly easy to find the cited figure of aseptic meningitis rates of 1 out of 900 in the worst case: see https://www.vaccineconfidence......cine/
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:56 am
More evidence of Pro-Vax FRAUD, look at the Abstract of the Study - Look how the Fake Scientists HIDE the fact that the MMR was replaced with three separate vaccines - not ONE WORD is mentioned. Only if you read the entire study do you see that.
This is DELIBERATE to fool people that when you discontinue MMR it causes Autism to go up. And this type of LIE is done in many "vaccine-safety" studies. Real Scientists point out the Fraud.

Abstract

Background: A causal relationship between the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine and occurrence of autism spectrum disorders (ASD) has been claimed, based on an increase in ASD in the USA and the UK after introduction of the MMR vaccine. However, the possibility that this increase is coincidental has not been eliminated. The unique circumstances of a Japanese MMR vaccination program provide an opportunity for comparison of ASD incidence before and after termination of the program.

Methods: This study examined cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven for children born from 1988 to 1996 in Kohoku Ward (population approximately 300,000), Yokohama, Japan. ASD cases included all cases of pervasive developmental disorders according to ICD‐10 guidelines.

Results: The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.

Conclusions: The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Fraud in this study is:

Undisclosed Conflict of Interest: Co-author Michael Rutter has close associations with the drug industry, including GlaxoSmithKline. He was a paid expert witness on their behalf in the UK MMR vaccine damage litigation. That was not declared in the Honda/Rutter paper.
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amother




Mustard


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:58 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
There's got to be a typo there; you say "unvaxed" for both groups.


Sorry. Thanks for catching that! (That's what I get for typing while feeding the baby breakfast Surprised )
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:03 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
And by the way, in addition to rising rates of autism once vaccines were no longer mandatory, do you know what else happened? Increasing rates of measles, with dire consequences. For example, in 1998-1999, there were 2034 cases of measles in Okinawa, and 8 deaths, mostly in infants. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....4286/


Do you know why people stopped vaccinating?

Because Autism went up when MMR was introduced, Autism went down when people stopped giving MMR and Autism went up again when MMR was separated into three separate vaccines.

And had vaccines not been introduced the infants would not have died - they would have gotten the mother's antibodies in utero and through nursing. But vaccinated mothers cannot pass on their antibodies so thanks to vaccines, babies are more at risk
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:06 am
#BestBubby wrote:
1. Wrong. Measles and Rubella were still mandatory, only Mumps was voluntary. This is stated in the study: "Following a reform of the Immunization Law in 1994, measles and rubella vaccinations were each specified for children between the ages of 12 and 90 months ... The mumps vaccination was voluntary"

2. Per the Study, after MMR was introduced the vaccination rate fell sharply because so many children were vaccine injured - as you stated by aseptic meningitis.
1988 - 70% were vaccinated
1989 - 43%
1990 - 34%
1991 - 24%
1992 - 2%

1994 - Three separate vaccines replaced the MMR

If you look at the chart on Figure 2 you will see that Autism went sharply UP after MMR was introduced in 1998, Autism went DOWN when MMR vaccination rates dropped, then Autism went UP again - after THREE Vaccines were introduced in 1994 (Measles, Mumps, Rubella - given separately, 4 weeks apart).

So the Chart in the study actually shows the OPPOSITE of what the authors claimed! The Chart shows when MMR was introduced, Autism went up, when people stopped vaccinating, Autism went down and when 3 separate vaccines replaced the MMR, autism went back up again!

Nowhere in the study does it state that the vaccination rate fell as you claim. You were wrong that Japan stopped mandating vaccines - only mumps were voluntary, but the other two vaccines were mandatory.

This is not my observation but what other scientists have said in reviewing this study.

So what Blimi Marcus told the women was absolutely FALSE. Yes, autism went up after MMR was withdrawn - because it was replaced with THREE separate vaccines instead. Blimi Marcus Never told the women that MMR was replaced with 3 separate vaccines - so what she said is a Lie.


Wrong. NO vaccines in Japan are mandatory. Some, including measles/rubella are "routine recommended." Others are called "voluntary". But none are mandatory.

Read the articles I've linked about vaccination in Japan.
From https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p.....4286/

Quote:

The Japanese immunization law is complicated with double-standard categories: routine recommended and voluntary vaccination.


The difference is in the cost. The cost is covered for "routine recommended" vaccines. But these vaccines are still voluntary.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:10 am
#BestBubby wrote:
Do you know why people stopped vaccinating?

Because Autism went up when MMR was introduced, Autism went down when people stopped giving MMR and Autism went up again when MMR was separated into three separate vaccines.

And had vaccines not been introduced the infants would not have died - they would have gotten the mother's antibodies in utero and through nursing. But vaccinated mothers cannot pass on their antibodies so thanks to vaccines, babies are more at risk


nchr and others have repeatedly refuted your claim that vaccinated mothers cannot pass antibodies. Vaccinated mothers can and do pass on their antibodies in the same way that mothers who have had the illness pass on their antibodies. Babies start losing this birth-acquired immunity at around 6-12 months whether or not their mothers acquired the antibodies through illness or through vaccination.

You are repeating things that are just plain false. Stop it.
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#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:11 am
JoyInTheMorning wrote:
The difference is in the cost. The cost is covered for "routine recommended" vaccines. But these vaccines are still voluntary.


I stand corrected. When the study stated that mumps was "voluntary", I understood that to mean measles and rubella were mandatory.

But you have shown nothing to prove your assertion that in 1994 when MMR was replaced with 3 separate vaccines that vaccine rates fell.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:18 am
#BestBubby wrote:
I stand corrected. When the study stated that mumps was "voluntary", I understood that to mean measles and rubella were mandatory.

But you have shown nothing to prove your assertion that in 1994 when MMR was replaced with 3 separate vaccines that vaccine rates fell.


You will have to wait until later today; I cannot look for more Pubmed articles now. I have seen the figures, and the report of a "vaccine gap" which meant that there was lesser coverage of these diseases following 1994, but cannot find the exact source now.

Note also: the issue was not the switch from 1 vaccine to 3; it was the switch from mandatory to non-mandatory. You yourself must realize that making vaccines non-mandatory results in lower rates of vaccination.
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nchr




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:30 am
I also don't really know many people with chronic illness so I finding this whole screaming business to be hyperbole as well.
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amother




Aquamarine


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 10:10 am
amother [ Wine ] wrote:
I actually have many concerns. You saw but one sentence of a much larger issue. Yes you do know my religion, but you don't know about my religious beliefs. Not with vaccines, not with music, not with dress, not with many other aspects of Judiasm.

My RE ties in very specifically with what is known (and unknown) about vaccines. My RE was written on a table covered 3/4 with seforim, with DH constantly flipping through a mixture older and more contemporary seforim. I took notes while he spoke, and I just stopped him when I got sick of taking notes. Otherwise, the responsa could've been a lot longer.


Your religious beliefs are the same all Jews who believe. They have to be.

How you dress. If you wear skirts 4 inches or 6 inches or an inch below your knee - none of those are beliefs. A Jewish person doesn't say "I believe that I should cover my neck with a collar".
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 10:15 am
nchr wrote:
I also don't really know many people with chronic illness so I finding this whole screaming business to be hyperbole as well.


And the biggest question is that even if vaccines cause an auto-immune reaction in some people, how do these people differ from the teaming masses that appear to suffer no I'll effects as a result of vaccines?
Would the answer be to return to a time when children were killed and crippled by diphtheria and polio? Are anti-vaxers prepared for that possibility? Those diseases didn't vanish due to better hygiene as they claim.
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Sebastian




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 11:48 am
I think auto immmune conditions are very common among European Jews b/c of intermarrying among themselves for many generations. I also think the American diet and lack of exercise are also to blame to chronic disease. Not vaccines.
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