To the anti vaxers, did you vaccinate?

imasoftov

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:06 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

Your religious beliefs are the same all Jews who believe. They have to be.

How you dress. If you wear skirts 4 inches or 6 inches or an inch below your knee - none of those are beliefs. A Jewish person doesn't say "I believe that I should cover my neck with a collar".

While it's very unlikely that I would read Wine's religious exemption request and agree that it correctly applies Jewish beliefs, I wouldn't say that we all have (or must have) identical beliefs. Rambam's 13 ikkarim are standard, but believing Jews disagree about details of those ikkarim as well as other beliefs that are not addressed by the ikkarim.

#BestBubby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:23 pm

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

https://westbororabbi.blogspot.com/2019/09/bodily-autonomy-and-halacha_11.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR3_aqqNw3dadLV7UQCKmbWZbpYOhEqpasj1BA3AeaF7JGyFGddJbvcf8T4

Interesting. Here is a quote from a Rabbi's article against mandatory vaccination:

Consequently, halacha does not sanction the violation of personal autonomy by mandating vaccination. Firstly, the individual is healthy and is in no present danger. There is no precedent in halacha for coercing preventative medicinal measures. Secondly, every incision or hypodermic/subcutaneous puncture carries a risk, such as allergic or anaphylactic reaction. Furthermore, each particular vaccine carries risks of its own, including severe injury or death. This is an undisputed fact. Even if the risk is minimal, since there is a risk there must be a choice, unless the case can be made that this presently-healthy individual is in serious risk of contracting and succumbing to a prevalent disease that this vaccine may effectively prevent...

if it is indeed true that measles has a mortality rate of 1/1000, it would certainly justify violating Shabbos (and violating patient’s bodily autonomy if called for) once the patient presents with measles! If the individual is healthy, then the potential risk of 1/1000 in the possible event that he might contract measles does NOT constitute valid grounds for violating Shabbos, and certainly not his personal autonomy. Clearly, a healthy individual may decline measles vaccine, since a) he is in no present danger, b) he presently poses no danger to anyone else, and c) there is some risk involved in receiving the injection, even if minimal.

“Public health policy” and “herd immunity” are not factors in halacha, so there is no compelling reason to sanction coercing patient to vaccinate in order to protect others from theoretical disease that he might be more prone to contract and spread based on statistical speculation.

#BestBubby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:30 pm

southernbubby wrote:

And the biggest question is that even if vaccines cause an auto-immune reaction in some people, how do these people differ from the teaming masses that appear to suffer no I'll effects as a result of vaccines?
Would the answer be to return to a time when children were killed and crippled by diphtheria and polio? Are anti-vaxers prepared for that possibility? Those diseases didn't vanish due to better hygiene as they claim.

IF diptheria and polio return, people will re-evaluate then. At present there is virtually no risk, while vaccines do have risk.

Look at how RAMPANT chronic illness is among children since the CDC QUADRUPLED 4x the Vaccine Schedule around 1990:

1:5 teens had episode of mental illness
1:6 children are learning disabled
1:6 children are allergic (can be FATAL)
1:8 children have IBS
1:10 children have ADHD
1:13 children have asthma (can be FATAL)
1:45 children have AUTISM and keeps increasing
1:100 children have Epilepsy /Seizure Disorder
1:250 children have Tourettes Syndrome
1:400 children have Diabetes
1:775 babies die of SIDS
1:1,000 children have Celiac Disease
1:5,560 children have CANCER

ZERO deaths from Measles, Mumps, Chickenpox or Polio (in USA).
432 deaths following vaccines reported to VAERS in 2016

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:35 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I know - and agree with you.

southernbubby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:52 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

All someone has to do is visit a country where those diseases are in the population and they could bring it the same way that measles came to America.

People had plenty of objections to the smallpox vaccine which killed one out of a thousand people who got the vaccine but the disease is gone. I'm sure that there is an anti-vax explanation that gives absolutely no credit to vaccines for the fact that smallpox is no longer a threat, but that success is what fueled other vaccines.

Now many of the illnesses that you claim are rampant existed before the current vaccine schedule and smallpox vaccine has been around for a couple of centuries so do anti-vaxers blame type one diabetes on the smallpox vaccine? Prior to insulin, type one diabetes was usually fatal while smallpox had a 30% death rate and a very significant disability and disfigurement rate. My grandmother OBM used to tell the story of a child who was diagnosed as a diabetic and the doctor came to the house and watched the child urinate outside. The urine attracted flies and the child died soon after. More than likely, the child had only had one vaccine.

southernbubby

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:57 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

I would think that this would also mean that we can't "force" a pregnant teacher to teach if she felt that non-vaccinated children were a danger to her. Likewise if she has a home based play group.

Wouldn't choice work both ways or only for anti-vaxers?

amother

Aquamarine

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 5:08 pm

southernbubby wrote:

When there is risk, there should be choice - is an opinion that a lot of people hold.

The solution is to lobby for the removal of mandatory vaccination.

Sebastian

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 5:15 pm

amother [ Aquamarine ] wrote:

When there is risk, there should be choice - is an opinion that a lot of people hold.

The solution is to lobby for the removal of mandatory vaccination.

No the solution is for anti vaxers to move to their own private island with their own stores, should and schools. This way they can enjoy polio diphtheria pertussis measles and mumps without forcing it on ppl who dont want it

amother

Sienna

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 5:22 pm

Sebastian wrote:

I wonder if you would be singing this same tune with confidence if or when one of your kids gets slapped by vaccines side effect or allergic reaction. HaShem did not give you strong kids/ family so that you can laugh on others. No one is against protection.

Sebastian

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 5:29 pm

amother [ Sienna ] wrote:

I wonder if you would be singing this same tune with confidence if or when one of your kids gets slapped by vaccines side effect or allergic reaction. Shame on you. HaShem did not give you strong kids/ family so that you can laugh on others. No one is against protection.

I had a severe reaction to the dpt. It s no longer made so its irrelevant now. I still was vaccinated. my siblings were still all vaccinated and so are my kids.

Someone with a real allergy can get a medical exception

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 6:23 pm

Sebastian wrote:

My brother actually had a bad reaction (thrombocytopenia) to two separate vaccines. No one else in the family had a history of this and everyone is vaccinated fully. He was not vaccinated further, until college when he decided to try on his own due to there being a measles outbreak at the time. He BH did not react the same way and decided to catch up on all vaccinations, including HPV and Flu.

amother

Indigo

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:31 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

Why would he play roulette that can I have life long ramifications? Did he really believe a 50% chance of not getting the flu was worth it. I don't get it

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 9:24 pm

amother [ Indigo ] wrote:

Why would he play roulette that can I have life long ramifications? Did he really believe a 50% chance of not getting the flu was worth it. I don't get it

He chose to get the MMR because there was an outbreak of measles and the risk from the measles is higher so after he BH successfully was vaccinated against MMR hediscussed his potential for ch'v experiencing thrombocytopenia after other vaccines. He felt the risk was very low and worth vaccinating against everything at that point. BH he was fine and he made the decision as an adult, with medical advice. However, had anti vaxxer not brought back measles, other people who are at risk of thrombocytopenia, allergic reactions, etc. would not need to be vaccinated because random people who would likely hvae no reaction at all are dreaming things are from vaccines so they avoid them...

amother

Indigo

Wed, Sep 11 2019, 10:57 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

How is it that people are dreaming that vaccine reactions happen, if you admit your brother had a reaction.