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NYC Measles Outbreak is Over
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amother




Red


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 5:04 am
mommy3b2c wrote:
Mesira does not really exist in the US. Mesira existed in scenarios such as the Spanish Inquisition when someone mossered on their neighbor for being a marrano and got them killed as a result. People who scream mosser all day have no idea what they are talking about.


Not to mention that there isn't even a punishment for not vaccinating.. DOH already knows who is and is not vaccinated. You dont go to jail. You dont have shots forcibly injected into you. Etc.
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amother




Crimson


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 5:05 am
amother [ Red ] wrote:
I doubt that. The measles was one issue, but now they are under the microscope for being so inept that they did not even have records all together. The same was the case with Monsey schools. They will need to have records. Also, records can be sent straight to the DOH. I know Satmar in Monsey (Bais Esther) as in Monroe (Big School) will not be allowing any unvaccinated students and they are very tough about it.


2 years ago before this whole measles outbreak, Uta in Monroe wouldn't let me register my kid unless my kid was up to date with all of her immunizations. Then when I registered my other kid, the same thing. They were on top of it before.

My sister's kid had an terrible adverse reaction to the dtap at 9 months. She got abrain injury. Bh years of therapy and a SN therapeutic preaschool for a year and now she's chugging along in a mainstream kindergarten. My sister stopped vaccinating her kids after that. She spoke to someone in the immunization department. They didn't give her any problems. When her kids are older she selectively immunizes.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 5:37 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
2 years ago before this whole measles outbreak, Uta in Monroe wouldn't let me register my kid unless my kid was up to date with all of her immunizations. Then when I registered my other kid, the same thing. They were on top of it before.

My sister's kid had an terrible adverse reaction to the dtap at 9 months. She got abrain injury. Bh years of therapy and a SN therapeutic preaschool for a year and now she's chugging along in a mainstream kindergarten. My sister stopped vaccinating her kids after that. She spoke to someone in the immunization department. They didn't give her any problems. When her kids are older she selectively immunizes.


I don't know how to link the article but I read on the news today that because California only has medical exemptions, and investigates doctors who issue more than 5 a year, they are allowing exemptions due to family history of bad reactions if it is determined that there is a family history. They have a panel of medical professionals that hear appeals for those who feel that they were unfairly denied.

The problem in NY is because of the large amount of anti-vax propaganda circulating, much of it quoting people with questionable credentials, the people who had genuine concerns were lumped in with people who had been convinced by the propaganda. The focus needs to be on children who are at risk from vaccines rather than on conspiracy theories.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 6:33 am
amother [ Crimson ] wrote:
2 years ago before this whole measles outbreak, Uta in Monroe wouldn't let me register my kid unless my kid was up to date with all of her immunizations. Then when I registered my other kid, the same thing. They were on top of it before.

My sister's kid had an terrible adverse reaction to the dtap at 9 months. She got abrain injury. Bh years of therapy and a SN therapeutic preaschool for a year and now she's chugging along in a mainstream kindergarten. My sister stopped vaccinating her kids after that. She spoke to someone in the immunization department. They didn't give her any problems. When her kids are older she selectively immunizes.

I hope and pray for her that they will continue to not give her any problems because by law, her children are not exempt from being up -to-date.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 6:35 am
southernbubby wrote:
I don't know how to link the article but I read on the news today that because California only has medical exemptions, and investigates doctors who issue more than 5 a year, they are allowing exemptions due to family history of bad reactions if it is determined that there is a family history. They have a panel of medical professionals that hear appeals for those who feel that they were unfairly denied.

The problem in NY is because of the large amount of anti-vax propaganda circulating, much of it quoting people with questionable credentials, the people who had genuine concerns were lumped in with people who had been convinced by the propaganda. The focus needs to be on children who are at risk from vaccines rather than on conspiracy theories.

Can you share the name of the article so I can google it?

I haven't done any research on California but I do now they just passed a law which tightened the medical exemptions there, so it's interesting that they'd allow an exemption due to a family member's adverse reaction.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 7:32 am
I can't find the article that I read earlier but I googled California vaccine news for September 4 and apparently the governor feels that the current law creates a bureaucracy that interferes with sound medical decisions.
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Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 7:59 am
amother [ Papaya ] wrote:
Shame on you. I can tell you one thing definitely, G-d is NOT proud of what you have done. I hope you have the sechel to rethink what you've done and do teshuva for it, if that is even possible. It is written that a mosser has no chance for teshuva in his lifetime.


I didn't know there are people among us today who definitely know what Hashem is or isn't proud of. Are you a Navi?

Mashiach should just come quickly.
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PinkFridge




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 8:11 am
mommy3b2c wrote:
Mesira does not really exist in the US. Mesira existed in scenarios such as the Spanish Inquisition when someone mossered on their neighbor for being a marrano and got them killed as a result. People who scream mosser all day have no idea what they are talking about.


I am not so sure.
There are situations where for sure this is not an issue. I've heard when it comes to molesters there's no question about going straight to authorities. IIRC I heard this b'sheim Rav Aharon Feldman, shlita.
I think that the idea is that such a person is a dangerous rodef and yes, the authorities need to deal with him (her).
If this is the case, I can clearly see the case re people who haven't vaccinated. BUT, and this is so important, BUT I strongly advise CYLOR or a rav who you feel has big enough shoulders to pasken on this. There ARE some serious ramifications and issues to take into consideration, and I will mention them in general, not necessarily re not vaxing.
- Is the resulting chilul Hashem a factor?
- Will the person get a disproportionate punishment?

Obviously this is weighed against the greater good of getting bad actors put away and not able to prey on others. But we have to act deliberately, and not be vigilantes.
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JoyInTheMorning




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 8:51 am
PinkFridge wrote:
I am not so sure.
There are situations where for sure this is not an issue. I've heard when it comes to molesters there's no question about going straight to authorities. IIRC I heard this b'sheim Rav Aharon Feldman, shlita.
I think that the idea is that such a person is a dangerous rodef and yes, the authorities need to deal with him (her).
If this is the case, I can clearly see the case re people who haven't vaccinated. BUT, and this is so important, BUT I strongly advise CYLOR or a rav who you feel has big enough shoulders to pasken on this. There ARE some serious ramifications and issues to take into consideration, and I will mention them in general, not necessarily re not vaxing.
- Is the resulting chilul Hashem a factor?
- Will the person get a disproportionate punishment?

Obviously this is weighed against the greater good of getting bad actors put away and not able to prey on others. But we have to act deliberately, and not be vigilantes.


There's always a chillul Hashem concern, including when turning a molester into authorities. Regarding anti-vaxxers, I myself would spend a lot more effort trying to reassure people, based on the facts, and change their minds toward vaccination. (I think people can tell that from the amount of time that I've spent on this forum.) However, I can also understand those who report on clearly unsafe behavior. The sooner the outbreaks are over -- I am far from convinced that we've heard the last about measles in the Orthodox community -- the sooner the chillul Hashem fades from society's memory, and the better it is for the Jewish people.

Edited to add: I don't think disproportionate punishment is an issue here. Anti-vaxxers are not getting punished. They essentially have amnesty: if they vax their kids now, there are no negative consequences. Doctors who falsified vax records have been disciplined before; that is nothing new.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 9:10 am
southernbubby wrote:
I can't find the article that I read earlier but I googled California vaccine news for September 4 and apparently the governor feels that the current law creates a bureaucracy that interferes with sound medical decisions.

All I'm seeing in the news is about the tightened restrictions on medical exemptions which mandates an approval of a doctor-given exemption by a DOH officer. And that doctors who give more than five medical exemptions in a year be investigated. Scary.


This news article highlights the recent history of vaccination laws in California. Read it and the story we learned in 1st grade of how Paroah conned the Jews into being his slaves comes to mind.
https://californiaglobe.com/se.....bill/
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 10:10 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
All I'm seeing in the news is about the tightened restrictions on medical exemptions which mandates an approval of a doctor-given exemption by a DOH officer. And that doctors who give more than five medical exemptions in a year be investigated. Scary.


This news article highlights the recent history of vaccination laws in California. Read it and the story we learned in 1st grade of how Paroah conned the Jews into being his slaves comes to mind.
https://californiaglobe.com/se.....bill/


It looks like Democrats are pushing for the tightened restrictions and the governor is trying to strike a balance. There apparently are doctors in California who will sell their souls to the devil if they get paid enough. Some people are leaving California rather than to be pushed around.
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amother




Brunette


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 10:30 am
southernbubby wrote:
It looks like Democrats are pushing for the tightened restrictions and the governor is trying to strike a balance. There apparently are doctors in California who will sell their souls to the devil if they get paid enough. Some people are leaving California rather than to be pushed around.


You conveniently disregarded the more insidious part of that article that I pointed out in my previous post.
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southernbubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 11:17 am
amother [ Brunette ] wrote:
You conveniently disregarded the more insidious part of that article that I pointed out in my previous post.


I not sure what part of it that you are referring to. From a purely public health standpoint, the frum community is so prepared for health emergencies that we have our own ambulance fleet and frum urgent care centers on every corner so most measles cases here had a happy ending but are all communities that equipped? Even the most corrupt system needs to address this.
What specifically do you want me to address?

ETA: maybe more citizens need to get involved so that laws are not passed in the middle of the night or otherwise railroaded
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amother




Papaya


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 11:55 am
mommy3b2c wrote:
Mesira does not really exist in the US. Mesira existed in scenarios such as the Spanish Inquisition when someone mossered on their neighbor for being a marrano and got them killed as a result. People who scream mosser all day have no idea what they are talking about.


I never knew the torah changes based on your location.
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mommy3b2c




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:01 pm
amother [ Papaya ] wrote:
I never knew the torah changes based on your location.


That’s a really silly response. I’m pretty sure you know that it’s not the location of the US that matters, but the government in the US that does. Learn the laws of mesira.
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amother




Papaya


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:07 pm
mommy3b2c wrote:
That’s a really silly response. I’m pretty sure you know that it’s not the location of the US that matters, but the government in the US that does. Learn the laws of mesira.


I actually checked last night before I posted. What she did absolutely falls into the category of mesira. But when it comes to the topic of vaccines, people have no qualms about committing any aveira as long as it hurts people who don't vaccinate. I wonder what the official at the other side of the line was thinking when a religious Jew called to report on her own brother. But of course only anti vaxxers are the ones making a chillul hashem.
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singleagain




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:27 pm
amother [ Papaya ] wrote:
I actually checked last night before I posted. What she did absolutely falls into the category of mesira. But when it comes to the topic of vaccines, people have no qualms about committing any aveira as long as it hurts people who don't vaccinate. I wonder what the official at the other side of the line was thinking when a religious Jew called to report on her own brother. But of course only anti vaxxers are the ones making a chillul hashem.


I would imagine the official was thinking "thank goodness this person isn't trying to protect their own who is breaking the law and endearing the lives of other ppl."
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amother




Brunette


Post  Wed, Sep 04 2019, 12:29 pm
southernbubby wrote:
I not sure what part of it that you are referring to. From a purely public health standpoint, the frum community is so prepared for health emergencies that we have our own ambulance fleet and frum urgent care centers on every corner so most measles cases here had a happy ending but are all communities that equipped? Even the most corrupt system needs to address this.
What specifically do you want me to address?

ETA: maybe more citizens need to get involved so that laws are not passed in the middle of the night or otherwise railroaded

That's right. I'm looking at you. (Up until now, you said "Let the anti-vaxxers lobby against mandating Gardasil" and other such comments.)
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