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A polite "good morning" won't make you sin, or will it?
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genius




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 9:38 pm
amother [ Scarlet ] wrote:
its either that or he'll disinherit our branch of the family (a bit tongue in cheek), but you get what I mean?

Neh. I grew up ultra frum and I can't think of a single zeide of mine or of my siblings who wouldn't be delighted. If your zeidy is from the minority who wouldn't appreciate a "good morning zeidy!" he probably has many more farfrumt quirks that you'd likely know about.
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rachelmom1




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 9:54 pm
I haven't had the chance to read all the responses today's post. What's the school starting and getting all the kids out my internet time has significantly come down the last few days. Even so I do Wonder is it normal for us to say good morning when we pass men in the street.. I for one almost never say good morning to my male neighbors,, are all other imas here doing that?
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amother




Lavender


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 9:56 pm
rachelmom1 wrote:
I haven't had the chance to read all the responses today's post. What's the school starting and getting all the kids out my internet time has significantly come down the last few days. Even so I do Wonder is it normal for us to say good morning when we pass men in the street.. I for one almost never say good morning to my male neighbors,, are all other imas here doing that?


I usually follow the man's lead. The majority of the time, it's a short nod of acknowledgment.
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amother




Scarlet


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 10:41 pm
genius wrote:
Neh. I grew up ultra frum and I can't think of a single zeide of mine or of my siblings who wouldn't be delighted. If your zeidy is from the minority who wouldn't appreciate a "good morning zeidy!" he probably has many more farfrumt quirks that you'd likely know about.


OK. So the question is, would he even know who I am (cos he never really looks at me!)
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kenz




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 10:45 pm
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
Reminds me of the time I once I skid on a cardboard box on the ground fell in the local outdoor shopping center a friday morning. I skinned my knees really bad and there was a lot of cuts and bleeding. I looked up from the ground and all around me all I could see were men in black and white, all watching at a distance conflicted to ask for help or not.

I eventually got up and picked myself up and luckily there was a kupat cholim there, so I got bandaged up and cuts clean a few minutes later. But it was a really embarrassing and awkward scenario.


And I hope each one of them is still conflicted to this day about whether they should have offered help. What if it had been one of their mothers who had fallen?
We are not talking about frivolous conversation, we are talking about being a mentch, plain and simple.
My daughter came home from seminary last year with a story about a classmate who was crossing and somehow didn't notice a vehicle approaching. A very chareidi young man - late teens or early 20's - grabbed her, pulled her back, and likely saved her life, then continued walking without even speaking to her. She was flabbergasted - and understandably beyond grateful. That boy's mother did a good job.
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kenz




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 10:56 pm
Chayalle wrote:
I remember once being in E"Y with DD, who was 1 1/2 at the time. I was waiting at a bus stop. When the bus came, I took her out of her stroller and was starting toward the bus when two frum men, who had not visibly noticed me until then, grabbed hold of her stroller and lifted it onto the bus. A seat was vacated for me and DD, and my money was passed forward to the driver to pay the fare. At no time did the men look at me, but I appreciated their help very much. I definitely did not feel ignored.

There's no place like home.


I recently was shlepping my carriage up a flight of steps and an outwardly very frum man (I'm sure he is internally too, but I don't know him - I can only judge by what I saw) was standing at the top of the steps. He made sure to hold the door open for me as I lugged it up the steps and while half of me was impressed and grateful, the other half couldn't help but think how much more helpful it would have been had he attempted to help me carry the thing up the steps.
I also cannot stand it when men walk into stores in front of me as I am pushing a carriage and just let the door fly back so I have to catch it and hold it open while pushing the stroller through. What, pray tell, is going to happen if they hold the door open as I enter? They don't even have to look back.
This actually happened to me at a convenience store and the non-Jewish man behind the counter stopped the frum man and said to him, "Please hold the door open for her." There is simply something wrong with him having to do that.


Last edited by kenz on Mon, Sep 23 2019, 3:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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singleagain




 
 
 


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 11:08 pm
genius wrote:
No man ever greeted me when I walked in Manhattan and I find no fault in it. This theory here is your very own concoction. Most men don't think "ok here comes a woman. lemme not greet her or I will sin." They don't greet because that is the way they grew up. nothing personal against anyone


Even if they aren't thinking that. That is most likely in some form the reason this culture became the norm in the first place.
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amother




Rose


Post  Thu, Sep 05 2019, 11:15 pm
amother [ Lavender ] wrote:
Sorry to correct this here, but it's a real pet peeve of mine:

It's not a passuk. It's from Pirkei Avos, which is from Maseches Avos. It's from the Mishnah.

"אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה. באשתו אמרו, קל וחומר אשת חבירו"

However, אל תרבה means "don't speak too much." Does too much extend to saying "Good morning" and being polite? I highly, highly doubt it.

My husband says this Mishna refers specifically to husbands saying flirty things to their wives when they're Assur... And yes, he says good morning to the neighbors
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amother




Burlywood


Post  Fri, Sep 06 2019, 3:11 am
momomany wrote:
The passuk as I was taught continues to say kal vachomer your own wife. But the first part as I understand it means women in general.
And I try not to be oiver halacha while keeping a chumra, thats what my parents taught us and my son actually wrote an ethics paper for college regarding this very issue.
I still feel it is impt not to judge others religious practices or chumras. I was taught that too. I dont feel embarrassed, hurt or slighted when chassidish neighbors fail to greet me. I respect the way they were taught to practice yiddishkeit.
As a hospital nurse, I dont feel offended when male family members of patients dont make eye contact or speak to me and I am proud that the hospital I work at teaches its employees to respect this as a religious practice and to not be offended or try and make conversation. It is so so so sad that it it us jews that are judging our own brethren


So as a hospital nurse, I imagine that you work in a very mixed environment, Jewish/non-Jewish, frum/not yet frum.... do you speak to people; men and or women. When you walk in in the morning, do you say to the male security guard-good morning/how are you/have a great day...-general pleasantries? When you see the female housekeeper, do you say hello and thank her for all her hard work- keeping the hospital so clean?
Do you thank the volunteer, or say hello to the guy from maintenance who came to fix the hinge on a squeaky door, or the guy from environmental who came to empty the shred box?

My question is not whether you get offended and try to speak to people who don't want to speak to you, but rather do you greet people and make a Kiddush Hashem to those who are not part of that culture?

In the same light, shouldn't some of the communities be encouraged some of the boys to go into nursing this way men can have their BP .... checked by man and a woman wouldn't have to touch them. Nursing typically isn't pekuach nefesh, which is why you can't get a heter to work Shabbos.
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Sep 06 2019, 6:19 am
unexpected wrote:
Yes
My neighbor's husband should not notice me standing in front of my house or whatever, and if he did he should pretend he didn't. Those are our community norms.

So then what does he do?
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librarylady




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Sep 06 2019, 9:58 am
I live in a mostly yeshivish community right now. My husband is in kollel. I will not acknowledge any of his friends/our neighbors (they are basically the same people) when I see them in the street unless they specifically acknowledge me first (and in which case I might be a little weirded out). It's possible that they were sitting at my Shabbos table a few days ago and had no problem saying basic polite things like thank you everything was yummy, but it makes perfect sense that outside of that context there is a mutual understanding. Same for my husband, he doesn't even know what my friends look like (which is good with me) so he wouldn't specifically acknowledge them. We will both say good Shabbos though to anyone who looks like they would appreciate it.

On the other hand, if I was at my parents (who are just as frum but live in a VERY oot area) then of course I would have to exchange basic polite conversation with every single Jew in sight because they would be insulted if I didn't. Whereas if I passed my chassidish brother-in-law on the street I'm not sure he would even know who I am. I'd only initiate conversation if I really needed to speak to him.

I think that's pretty reasonable overall. To gauge how the other person looks/feels about it and act accordingly, and respect both ways.
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FranticFrummie




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Sep 06 2019, 10:37 am
I'm going to take the men's side for a minute. We don't know what their home life is like.

They may be in the early stages of recovery from zex addition, and are working extra hard on themselves.

Their wives might be very insecure. Because of a new baby, hormones, weight gain, etc. Or maybe she's a supermodel, but it's shana rishona, and she's extra sensitive. Perhaps they've caught their husbands glancing just a little too long at someone on the street, on a regular basis.

I've been on this board long enough to have seen every single one of these situations, more than once, so I know I'm not just making things up.

These men may be working very hard on their shalom bayis, and it has nothing to do with you. If it's not actively hurting you (like they don't back over you in their car, because they are too frum to use the rear view mirror) then you should give them the benefit of a doubt.
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amother




White


Post  Fri, Sep 06 2019, 10:53 am
I didn't read the whole thread but from what I did I understand we're talking about frum guys that aren't greeting females.
I work in an office with a lot of jewish (all types) and gentiles (all types). there are quite a few gentile guys that will not greet me. ever. I chalk it up to brilliance, anti-social or absentmindedness. that's their right. so if a frum guy doesn't greet me why should I read in to it any more than if a non Jew doesn't greet me. each to their own. they are entitled to not say hi. who really cares?
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momomany




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Sep 06 2019, 12:16 pm
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
So as a hospital nurse, I imagine that you work in a very mixed environment, Jewish/non-Jewish, frum/not yet frum.... do you speak to people; men and or women. When you walk in in the morning, do you say to the male security guard-good morning/how are you/have a great day...-general pleasantries? When you see the female housekeeper, do you say hello and thank her for all her hard work- keeping the hospital so clean?
Do you thank the volunteer, or say hello to the guy from maintenance who came to fix the hinge on a squeaky door, or the guy from environmental who came to empty the shred box?

My question is not whether you get offended and try to speak to people who don't want to speak to you, but rather do you greet people and make a Kiddush Hashem to those who are not part of that culture?

In the same light, shouldn't some of the communities be encouraged some of the boys to go into nursing this way men can have their BP .... checked by man and a woman wouldn't have to touch them. Nursing typically isn't pekuach nefesh, which is why you can't get a heter to work Shabbos.

I will try and answer your questions in order.
1. I smile and greet almost everyone I meet-patients, all staff, visitors etc. Regardless of gender or culture.
2. I try and remember to thank everyone and yes that includes the person waxing the floor or cleaning the toilet, as well as the doctor attending to my.patient
3.I am acutely aware that I look obvioisly jewish and it is therefore super important for my behavior to be above reproach in all my interactions, to avoid chillul hashem.and hopefully create kiddush hashem
4.I dont get offended when people do or dont respond to me. Thats their business.
5.Nursing is a great profession for men and thankfully I see more.and more jewish men in the field..My son is a medical professional (not a nurse though) and of course treats patients of both genders

Btw, you didnt ask, but in my community it is acceptable to greet and be greeted by men-except for those with obvious levush that defines them as someone who would be uncomfortable beimg greeted. I regularly greet most of my neighbors, regardless of gender.
I can still understand and not judge those whose norm is not to do so. I will also not beat them over the head with psukim, mishnas, psaks etc to try and prove why my way is the right way. Eilu Vieilu Divrei Elokim Chaim
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sub




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Sep 06 2019, 2:11 pm
Momomany
I am quoting your words. Perhaps your words will knock some sense into others.

I can still understand and not judge those whose norm is not to do so. I will also not beat them over the head with psukim, mishnas, psaks etc to try and prove why my way is the right way. Eilu Vieilu Divrei Elokim Chaim

And btw- there are woman who don’t greet or hold doors or walk through when I hold a door and that is more maddening.
A gut gebentched yur to all.
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amother




Slateblue


Post  Sat, Sep 07 2019, 4:35 pm
I very much respect men who are machmir on themselves and do not greet women. I myself do not generally greet men.
However, I will say hello, good morning, have a good day to the security guard at my son's school whether or not he's wearing a kippa. It just feels different and even a nice thing to do.
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Mon, Sep 23 2019, 12:43 am
amother [ Puce ] wrote:
We used to live in an apartment building in Bp. If my husband would as much offer to help shlep a woman's stroller up the stairs she was so uncomfortable you'd think he asked to sleep with her. Same for holding the door open. They would look down and hurry away as if God knows what he wants to do. And my husband is a regular eidel chassidish looking guy.
We've since moved. Our new neighborhood has a bit of an oot vibe, anyone that passes each other on the street regardless of gender will greet good shabbos. We still marvel at it.

Interesting.
I used to live in BP and used to go up the steps with a double carriage and 2 babies sometimes I desperately needed someone to hold the door for me because I the steps were such a way that I needed to open the door while the carriage was halfway still on the step and it was impossible to do it without another person. Sometimes I man would pass and was wishing he would offer to help me shlep the carriage up. There were 3 steps between 2 doors into an apartment building and 3 steps before the 2 doors. Those steps were so difficult to manage on my own. Once in the building there was an elevator.
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naturalmom5




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 23 2019, 10:00 am
Fuchshia, did you ask him to hold the door, or were you just standing there with a bizarre facial expression.
I was at a Chanuka mesiba for the wives of my husband's Collel last year. I asked a few young ladies, "you are the younger generation, can you explain, why my husband alway get strange looks when he hold a door, or offers to help with a stroller. He was raised to be a gentleman"
One young girl, said " I can open a door by myself ".
I said, if you can't open a door, you need to be in a nursing home. Men still need to be gentlemen.
She just smiled, and walked away.
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amother




Puce


Post  Mon, Sep 23 2019, 10:33 am
amother [ Fuchsia ] wrote:
Interesting.
I used to live in BP and used to go up the steps with a double carriage and 2 babies sometimes I desperately needed someone to hold the door for me because I the steps were such a way that I needed to open the door while the carriage was halfway still on the step and it was impossible to do it without another person. Sometimes I man would pass and was wishing he would offer to help me shlep the carriage up. There were 3 steps between 2 doors into an apartment building and 3 steps before the 2 doors. Those steps were so difficult to manage on my own. Once in the building there was an elevator.


Apparently we did not live in the same building Smile
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amother




Fuchsia


Post  Mon, Sep 23 2019, 1:42 pm
naturalmom5 wrote:
Fuchshia, did you ask him to hold the door, or were you just standing there with a bizarre facial expression.
I was at a Chanuka mesiba for the wives of my husband's Collel last year. I asked a few young ladies, "you are the younger generation, can you explain, why my husband alway get strange looks when he hold a door, or offers to help with a stroller. He was raised to be a gentleman"
One young girl, said " I can open a door by myself ".
I said, if you can't open a door, you need to be in a nursing home. Men still need to be gentlemen.
She just smiled, and walked away.


No I didn't ask. I was embarrassed to ask but I was standing there trying to juggle it all myself and it was pretty obvious that I wasn't managing. I would ask little boys to help me if they were around. Sometimes there was no one around and I was literally stuck.
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