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A polite "good morning" won't make you sin, or will it?
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momomany




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:14 pm
simcha2 wrote:
There is a specific halacha to greet each person.

(Including women and non Jews)

מענה רך משיב חמה ומרבה שלום עם אחיו ועם קרוביו ועם כל אדם ואפילו עם גוי בשוק כדי שיהא אהוב למעלה ונחמד למטה ויהא מקובל על הבריות


Somebody here help me out and find all the mishna brura quotes on judging others kindly. It definitely says somewhere, Al tarbeh sicha im haisha and we can expound for hours on what tarbeh means to who.

Lets work on our own religious growth and not judge others.
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amother
Orchid


 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:17 pm
kenz wrote:
I agree with this. I don’t need my male neighbors to say hello, let alone shmooze, and certainly not a stranger, but if I’m shlepping a stroller/packages/child/anything up steps or in any situation where it seems difficult for me, I think it’s a complete lack of mentschlichkeit to pretend you don’t see me in the name of frumkeit. I don’t care what your community norms are. My husband won’t shmooze with female neighbors but he will certainly offer help when it is needed and I would be horrified if he didn’t. And yes, I live in a yeshivish community and we have both types of people. You can bet I’m doing my best to raise my kids to be decent human beings first.


Reminds me of the time I once I skid on a cardboard box on the ground fell in the local outdoor shopping center a friday morning. I skinned my knees really bad and there was a lot of cuts and bleeding. I looked up from the ground and all around me all I could see were men in black and white, all watching at a distance conflicted to ask for help or not.

I eventually got up and picked myself up and luckily there was a kupat cholim there, so I got bandaged up and cuts clean a few minutes later. But it was a really embarrassing and awkward scenario.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:18 pm
momomany wrote:
Religious questions that you have should be questions regarding your OWN practice , not that of others. Thats judgemental


I am questioning my religion. Isn't the Jewish/Torah way not to embarrass a person?
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amother
Purple


 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:18 pm
amother [ Apricot ] wrote:
Your OP doesn't sound very tolerant or respectful of other diverse lifestyles and cultures. Just saying.


Liberalism only goes in one direction. (Hint: It's to the left.)
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:24 pm
momomany wrote:
Somebody here help me out and find all the mishna brura quotes on judging others kindly. It definitely says somewhere, Al tarbeh sicha im haisha and we can expound for hours on what tarbeh means to who.

Lets work on our own religious growth and not judge others.


In an individual case, if someone fails to greet someone, you can be dlkz.

Every chumrah has a related kula. (You sit in the succah in the rain, you reduce your simchas yom tov etc.).

The issue is when you are so machmir on a chumrah that you are oiver a halacha.

(And the passuk you quoted is talking about one's wife)
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:25 pm
amother [ Purple ] wrote:
Liberalism only goes in one direction. (Hint: It's to the left.)


Hiding behind amother to be offensive seems to go both ways...
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soap suds




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:26 pm
I don't greet my male Jewish neighbors. They don't expect me to, wouldn't want me to, but mostly because I trust they won't get offended knowing where it's coming from.
I do greet my Non-Jewish neighbors though, because it would be rude and a chillul Hashem not to.


Last edited by soap suds on Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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momomany




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:28 pm
singleagain wrote:
I am questioning my religion. Isn't the Jewish/Torah way not to embarrass a person?

Yes. You shouldnt embarrass people
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:29 pm
amother [ Orchid ] wrote:
Reminds me of the time I once I skid on a cardboard box on the ground fell in the local outdoor shopping center a friday morning. I skinned my knees really bad and there was a lot of cuts and bleeding. I looked up from the ground and all around me all I could see were men in black and white, all watching at a distance conflicted to ask for help or not.

I eventually got up and picked myself up and luckily there was a kupat cholim there, so I got bandaged up and cuts clean a few minutes later. But it was a really embarrassing and awkward scenario.


I once heard 2 storues.. Which I hope are urban legend types

1) a guy like when a girl was buckled on the car bc here could see her chest. Bc that's more important than safety 🙄

2) guy and girl on a date and he pulls her back from getting hit by a car and she yells at him for touching. Bc I guess she's rather be dead 💀

Where does God say to not use the brains he gave us?
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:35 pm
momomany wrote:
Yes. You shouldnt embarrass people


Then I guess the best is to be aware of the situation. And yes. I personally don't begrudge men who I realize might not talk to me. But I would hope that if someone here them first, they'd be able to realize to not embarrass them. And personally, I'd want ppl to err on the side of caution.

And obviously, if this is a common occurrence. It wouldn't hurt to explain yourself. I think most people would understand once you say "religious reasons"
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momomany




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:35 pm
simcha2 wrote:
In an individual case, if someone fails to greet someone, you can be dlkz.

Every chumrah has a related kula. (You sit in the succah in the rain, you reduce your simchas yom tov etc.).

The issue is when you are so machmir on a chumrah that you are oiver a halacha.

(And the passuk you quoted is talking about one's wife)


The passuk as I was taught continues to say kal vachomer your own wife. But the first part as I understand it means women in general.
And I try not to be oiver halacha while keeping a chumra, thats what my parents taught us and my son actually wrote an ethics paper for college regarding this very issue.
I still feel it is impt not to judge others religious practices or chumras. I was taught that too. I dont feel embarrassed, hurt or slighted when chassidish neighbors fail to greet me. I respect the way they were taught to practice yiddishkeit.
As a hospital nurse, I dont feel offended when male family members of patients dont make eye contact or speak to me and I am proud that the hospital I work at teaches its employees to respect this as a religious practice and to not be offended or try and make conversation. It is so so so sad that it it us jews that are judging our own brethren
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amother
Burlywood


 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:37 pm
singleagain wrote:
I once heard 2 storues.. Which I hope are urban legend types

1) a guy like when a girl was buckled on the car bc here could see her chest. Bc that's more important than safety 🙄

2) guy and girl on a date and he pulls her back from getting hit by a car and she yells at him for touching. Bc I guess she's rather be dead 💀

Where does God say to not use the brains he gave us?

This is why on a date, when the guy drives, the girl should always sit in the back.

(I am saying this tongue in cheek)
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:44 pm
When I was on my pilot trip before Aliyah, I wasn't sure what to expect.

DD and I were lugging really heavy suitcases, and we had a lot of steps to go down to get to the train station.

Suddenly this huge, muscular, tattooed and pierced guy grabs our suitcases and starts to walk away. I stood frozen for a few seconds, not sure if I should call the police or what. When the guy sees that we're not following, he waves us forward and yells "Yallah!"

He carried our bags all the way up to the ticket window, and when I turned around he had disappeared into the crowd.

Since then I've found that both secular and religious Israelis can be wonderful people. I can't even think of a time that I've had someone slam a door in my face, or help me when I needed it.
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:55 pm
momomany wrote:
The passuk as I was taught continues to say kal vachomer your own wife. But the first part as I understand it means women in general.
And I try not to be oiver halacha while keeping a chumra, thats what my parents taught us and my son actually wrote an ethics paper for college regarding this very issue.
I still feel it is impt not to judge others religious practices or chumras. I was taught that too. I dont feel embarrassed, hurt or slighted when chassidish neighbors fail to greet me. I respect the way they were taught to practice yiddishkeit.
As a hospital nurse, I dont feel offended when male family members of patients dont make eye contact or speak to me and I am proud that the hospital I work at teaches its employees to respect this as a religious practice and to not be offended or try and make conversation. It is so so so sad that it it us jews that are judging our own brethren


On the passuk, it's pretty clear the תרבה is there as a qualifier, therefore, it is permitted to talk somewhat.

I also don't take it personally, and I think it's being oiver a halacha.
There is a mitzvah aseh to greet every person, and a mitzvah lo taaseh to not embarrass anyone.

People make their own calculus on balancing conflicting issues, on this case interaction with the opposite sx and the above mitzvos. My personal understanding is that by not greeting someone at all, the line is in the wrong place. Others feel that by greeting the line is in the wrong place.

But there is certainly a halachic rationale for questioning the practice of ignoring. If someone wants to say, this is how I hold, based on x halacha, fine. But I don't see anyone bringing forth a halacha that supports this.

All I see is name calling (not by you), rather than bringing forth a source.

Each to their own.

As I say, I assume they have a halachic rationale, I'd just like to see it.
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amother
Yellow


 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 2:55 pm
Most men of all sects will help a women in need. But to just expect a man to greet you and you feel insulted when they don't? It's pretty immature for an adult to be insulted when a male neighbor doesn't acknowledge her and greet her. Sounds like a kid when you want everyone to look at you and give you attention.
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simcha2




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 3:02 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Most men of all sects will help a women in need. But to just expect a man to greet you and you feel insulted when they don't? It's pretty immature for an adult to be insulted when a male neighbor doesn't acknowledge her and greet her. Sounds like a kid when you want everyone to look at you and give you attention.


A greeting is according to the gemara, a way to מרבה שלום, to increase peace in the world. By failing to acknowledge we decrease peace in the world. Why does it increase peace, the gemara says because "הא אהוב למעלה ונחמד למטה ויהא מקובל על הבריות" "
so that he will be loved above in God’s eyes,
pleasant below in the eyes of the people,
and acceptable to all of God’s creatures"

Nothing to do with immaturity.
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singleagain




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 3:05 pm
simcha2 wrote:
A greeting is according to the gemara, a way to מרבה שלום, to increase peace in the world. By failing to acknowledge we decrease peace in the world. Why does it increase peace, the gemara says because "הא אהוב למעלה ונחמד למטה ויהא מקובל על הבריות" "
so that he will be loved above in God’s eyes,
pleasant below in the eyes of the people,
and acceptable to all of God’s creatures"

Nothing to do with immaturity.


Also doesn't it say in pirkei avot something about greeting everyone with a pleasant face
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naturalmom5




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 3:07 pm
amother [ Blue ] wrote:
My husband actually feels the opposite.

He used to acknowledge women and offer assistance to those who clearly needed it.

He stopped becuase of how rude some of their responses were, with the clear implication that he is looking to flirt with them


Exactly
I find that the women are 100* more strident about it

The vast majority of normal well adjusted men I say good morning to will be polite

Virtually all the women in my neighborhood are hostile to men

When my husband gets holds the door for a mother with a stroller they act like they are being hit on.
He is older than their father usually.

My theory is the men have Torah , so they can be polite and still be very yeshivish

But for the women, tznius is their whole religion... so they fight to the death for it
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momomany




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 3:08 pm
simcha2 wrote:
On the passuk, it's pretty clear the תרבה is there as a qualifier, therefore, it is permitted to talk somewhat.

I also don't take it personally, and I think it's being oiver a halacha.
There is a mitzvah aseh to greet every person, and a mitzvah lo taaseh to not embarrass anyone.

People make their own calculus on balancing conflicting issues, on this case interaction with the opposite sx and the above mitzvos. My personal understanding is that by not greeting someone at all, the line is in the wrong place. Others feel that by greeting the line is in the wrong place.

But there is certainly a halachic rationale for questioning the practice of ignoring. If someone wants to say, this is how I hold, based on x halacha, fine. But I don't see anyone bringing forth a halacha that supports this.

All I see is name calling (not by you), rather than bringing forth a source.

Each to their own.

As I say, I assume they have a halachic rationale, I'd just like to see it.


You are entitled to your opinion. I totally disagree.

I was never taught that it is a mitzva for a man to greet a woman. One of my sons did his bar mitzva speech on the concept of being absolved of doing 1 mitzva while doing another..so one can argue that while doing the.mitzva of shmiras ainayim,a male can be absolved of greeting a woman (if that is even a mitzva)

I still dont see how a man is embarrassing a woman by not greeting her. Perhaps there is a subtle cultural nuance I am missing.

And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, until we are perfect ourselves, we really need to stop judging others as being "oiver". My family is a mixed bag of chassidish, yeshivish, litvish, lubavitch, Hungarian, galician etc. Thank g-d noone judges why one person sits during kiddush and the others stands; why one is already thinking of tomorrows shacharis while the other is seeking a maariv minyan from the day beofore; why one relishes matzo balls at the seder while the other wont eat matza at the table if there is liquid anywhere in the vicinity. Noone quotes shulchan aruch or mishna brura or tanach to prove why someone else is oiver and why they are truly the best jew with the purest practices.

I really think that we need to work on being the best people we can be and that includes looking at others and their religious practices kindly.
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momomany




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 05 2019, 3:10 pm
amother [ Yellow ] wrote:
Most men of all sects will help a women in need. But to just expect a man to greet you and you feel insulted when they don't? It's pretty immature for an adult to be insulted when a male neighbor doesn't acknowledge her and greet her. Sounds like a kid when you want everyone to look at you and give you attention.


How do I double triple LIKE this post?
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