Husband potched 5 year old for hitting

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amother

Plum

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 4:57 am

amother [ Forestgreen ] wrote:

This. Read those books it sound like it could be helpful.

Also, I think locking a kid in a room js worse than 1 potch. And just because you remained calm doesn't mean you parented appropriately or correctly. Youre acting extremely punitively in response to his request for cuddles?
Say, "oh, you wished I cuddled with you more? Now im cuddling with big brother. When im done cuddling with him, I can cuddle with you"

I totally agree with this. you are missing the point of parenting. its not about "never potching" (bec gasp thats out of style) and only using punishments like time outs (which in 5 years will probably be banned due to it being embarassing and emotionally neglectful etc) but about being emotionally attuned to your child needs. your child needs more security and reassurance so the worst thing to do is ignore him and give him a time out and pay more attention to his brother. your husbands potch is understandable to your child but this is emotionally hurtful, hence the escalation. Inreally suggest reading books by Sara Chana Radcliffe, she talks a lot about this.

amother

Plum

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 5:47 am

little neshamala wrote:

I seriously cant believe youre saying this. Among all the texts that I have ever encountered to do with spanking children halachicly, I have never once read any opinion that its ok to hit a child to show him what it feels like. If you can hit with that reasoning, can you scratch him too, if he scratches others? How about punch? (You know, if all else fails....just to show him what it feels like so he wont do it to others)

The following is cut and pasted from an article Rabbi Yakov Horowitz wrote on chinuch. Read it, see what the outlook some of our Gedolim had on spanking in general, then try to apply a good reason for hitting a child to show him what it feels like. Convince me that it isnt plain old mean.

(Pasted)

For the record, there are other quotes from our chazal (sages) that support potching children, and many contemporary poskim concur with that approach. But our great rebbi, Rav Avrohom Pam, z’tl would often comment that this is an instance of “Halacha v’ain morin cain" – [even though] halacha may support potching, we do not ‘paskin’ or apply this method nowadays. Our rebbi explained, that due to the enhanced sense of personal freedom and individual rights nowadays (and this was a generation ago), hitting children is unwise and counterproductive.

Rabbi Shlomo Wolbe, z’tl as well, was known to advise parents, that if they are considering hitting their children, they should be aware that their children will ‘hit them back’ for each and every potch when they grow older, by rebelling against their authority and teachings. (See Peleh Yoetz – under ‘Hakoah’.)

There is a timeless Ritva commenting on the gemara (Moed Koton 17a; see Shulchan Aruch Yoreh De’ah 240:19-20) which says that it is forbidden to hit a grown child, since it violates the prohibition of lifnei iveir lo setain michshol (causing another individual to sin), as is entirely possible that the adult child will sin, by striking or cursing his father in response to being hit.

More than 650 years ago, the Ritva (1250-1330) noted that the gemara prohibits hitting a grown child [only] since it is more likely that an adult would strike back. However, he says, that if even a young child (yeled) is of the temperament to lash out verbally or physically when hit, the prohibition is extended to him as well. I would suggest that in our current society and culture, where corporal punishment is frowned upon and often viewed as abuse, it would stand to reason that the practice of potching children be categorically suspended across the board.

this is very extreme and his own opinion. just because two gedolim agree with this does not make it torah misinai. there are many many gedolim who have surely potched their kids as well. just in todays liberal day and age people cannot admit to it. I personally thinknits healthy for a child to have a small element if fear from a father that a potch gives. this liberal nonsense has really gone too far. your kid wont be damaged from 2-3 potches in their life when deserved, trust me.

sevengirl

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 5:55 am

Haven’t read though all of this - but rachel Tuchman has an interesting view on this on Instagram

mommy201

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 6:51 am

amother [ Plum ] wrote:

Nothing is set in stone. But we live in a very precarious generation and in todays generation spanking, potching more often then not is considered detrimental if not borderline abusive. While it may have been effective and even more okay in the previous generations, todays children are different. Its the generation we live in where kids have access to anything and everything and are much weaker emotionally.

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 6:59 am

amother [ Black ] wrote:

You’re holding the door closed, literally and figuratively, while he is crying out that he needs you.

Instead of holding the door closed, hold him. And teach him that when he feels like he’s losing control, he can come to you for a hug.

Maybe he gets more snuggles than his brother. Maybe he needs more right now. His brother can have more when he needs it.

NO! I am a SEIT and you do not re-inforce bad behavior by rewarding it.

At another time, when child is calm, you can tell him, "if you want another hug, all you have to do is ask nicely 'can I have another hug' ". But once child resorts to tantrums, he MUST not get what he wants.

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:04 am

OP, I think you ARE handling your child extremely well. Some children are just more stubborn, but if you are consistent and follow through on consequences, it will probably work. Give it some more time.

I would try to give the child more attention, hugs but ONLY when he is behaving appropriately - NEVER when child starts acting out.

Children should be punished for saying "stupid" and "shut up" to a Parent - it is OSSUR.
They should be reprimanded when saying that to a sibling and taught about Ona'as Devorim. Role play and teach children how to negotiate with siblings and parents respectfully. Although child has to accept that a Parent can say No - even if he asked nicely.

urban gypsy

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:07 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

So, long story short, if you have a violent child that doesn't transition well, have you had them evaluated for Autism?

He's not a violent child! OP wrote that this was a new issue stemming from a recent abandonment experience. I hardly think that every 5 year old boy who hits and finds transitions difficult should be evaluated for autism. This seems developmentally appropriate.

mommy201

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:08 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Children should NOT have to buy/request their parents love!!! Love is unconditional not based on behavior. You are giving your children the idea that when they are good you love them and when they misbehave you don't. We are supposed to emulate Hashem, who loves us always through good and bad!

Chayalle

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:18 am

OP, I just want to share with you - I think you may be on to something that this could be the result of your having been away from the child, even though it was necessary...and he may not even be consciously aware of it, but he's testing you to see if you love him.

When my kids were 8 and 5, my 5 year old had to be hospitalized for a few days (I have posted about this here on imamother. She fell out of a shopping cart...NEVER put your child in the back of a shopping cart, I go nuts when I see kids in the grocery in the back of the cart, they don't belong there.) I remember when I came home, I couldn't wait for my older DD to come home from school so I could hug her. She came in, walked right past me into her room, and closed the door behind her.

I really would've blown this big time had I not just recently taken a parenting course....I decided to try the validation method, so when she came out, I said something to the effect - I see you are upset at me and not talking to me.

Her answer totally shocked me. She said, now I know for sure that you love (my sister) better than me.

How so? She felt she needed me those past few days, and I had been in the hospital with her sister. she felt I could've sent someone else with sis - by going, I had demonstrated to her 8 year old mind that I loved her sister more.

So I sat down and explained to her that parents have different skills, and that I happen to be better at dealing with medical stuff than DH (he would totally pass out. He's a real softy. He would join the anti-vax people just to spare his kids the injection, nothing to do with beliefs....) I pointed out to her that I'm the one that usually takes them for well-visits and shots, etc...and the reason I was in the hospital the past few days was not because I like sis more, but because I had to deal with the medical aspect of it.

I remember how she finally broke down crying, ran into my arms, and just stayed there for a long, long time while I held her and reassured her that I love them both tremendously and how much I had missed her, and how I couldn't wait for her to come home because I wanted to hug her so badly.

And over the next few days I kept on reassuring her that I love her so much...and B"H today we laugh back at her reaction back then, and how kids are so sensitive and it's hard to be away from a parent, and stuff like that.

I think this background info that you shared is a game changer.

Your son needs tremendous reassurance from you that you love him.

Like if he's whining that you are snuggling more with brother....maybe it would've helped to say, after you pointed out that it's the same amount, that maybe despite that he feels he needs more? when I am done with big brother's turn, I can give you another minute if you'd like. Because I love snuggling with you.

He needs alot of love....somewhere inside he thinks you could've stayed with him during that week. He doesn't even know it - it's just coming out this way.

mommy201

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:22 am

urban gypsy wrote:

I agree with this. Nothing OP's child did or said is out of ordinary especially giving circumstance. He seems like a normal healthy child that just needs the extra connection and love during this time. ( they always need love and connection).

keym

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:24 am

OP, what I noticed was a cycle of "bad behavior", "threatening", "punishment" and then even more bad behavior.
This to me is the hardest. Getting into a power struggle with the child and forcing the kid up the cliff that he can't back down from.
Personally, I would have ignored his increasing tantrums. "Mommy is cuddling brother now. You can ask for more time when I'm done." Lather, rinse, repeat. If he's screaming and preventing brother from falling asleep, send brother to your bed- not as a punishment to home but because brother needs his sleep.
My personal choice is sitting on floor right in front of his room with my back to him and repeat over and over. "Mommy can give you more cuddle time when the screaming is done and you are not hitting". Over and over and over. Calm, unemotional, and ignore throwing and destruction.

#BestBubby

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:32 am

mommy201 wrote:

Discipline is also a form of love. It is easier to give in, but because we love our children
we teach them proper behavior.

We always love our children but we don't give them hugs, kisses and lollipops when they are misbehaving. Liberal Meshugas.

mommy201

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 7:56 am

#BestBubby wrote:

It seems like there's no arguing with you so Ill probably stop here unless something really major catches my eye.
Maybe you know when you are punishing your children that you love them, if you do. But they definitely dont feel it and this is the message that comes across.
Children need to rest in the parents love and not have to earn it. If they don't physically feel and know at all times that their parents love they end up suffering with many long term emotional issues.

mommy201

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 8:01 am

keym wrote:

I used to do similar. Thinking that ignoring tantrums is how it would end it. Sometimes that works and sometimes it doesnt. What I later learned that a tantrum is a sign of a unmet need that the child is communicating, I stopped ignoring tantrums and empathized and connected instead. Besides for the fact the it does work, it kept me and my child calm long term and my child actually learned how to express themselves without having to resort to tantrums. It's like a win win. But it's work. But life is about work and changing yourself to become better.

keym

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 8:23 am

mommy201 wrote:

I hear.
But what I'm saying is more elementary than that. Ignore rather than escalate. OP doesn't potch, but she's still escalating punishments with increasingly more defiant behavior. By the end, the kid had time out, felt deprived of cuddles, had to pay for floss, lost a toy......
The continuing to escalate punishment with the child's increasing naughtiness leading to more punishments tells me that OP is locked in a power struggle with a 5 year old.
So stop the struggle. Forget about other parenting techniques for now and just stay calm and ignore the increasing naughtiness.

Don't let "perfect" be the enemy of "good enough".

ShishKabob

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 8:27 am

MnM1130 wrote:

I never got mixed messages when I got smacked as a kid.. I think he will be just fine, just try and figure out a better method that works for both of you for next time.

This! Thank you

little neshamala

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 8:28 am

Mommy201 I love and so agree with all of your posts. OP, its really worth reading them. Shes got a good head on her shoulders

mommy201

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 8:41 am

little neshamala wrote:

Mommy201 I love and so agree with all of your posts. OP, its really worth reading them. Shes got a good head on her shoulders

Thank you! I need like a "modest head" emoticon.
It's really all things I learned and it's always a work in progress. . Once you learn it, it becomes so natural, that I don't even know how I was ever different. I wish more ppl would learn this approach. It is so life-altering and would make the world a better place.

dancingqueen

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 8:46 am

Hitting my kids is just not something that occurs to me and in fact feels very wrong to me. And I agree that calling it a “potch” makes it sound adorable.

I also like mommy201 and keyms posts.

And just saying, I’m not blaming op, since she had a medical emergency. But I’ve always been a little skeptical that leaving kids for long periods is really so a-ok for them.

ShishKabob

Thu, Sep 12 2019, 8:49 am

#BestBubby wrote:

You're definitely the oddball here. Smile

. I think it's a generational thing. We've gotten too many mixed messages as parents. I happen to agree with you on this one. (others too)

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