Husband potched 5 year old for hitting

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 2:26 am

Wow, you really got a situation on your hands. May I say, I kind of read through all 7 pages but may have missed some, he’s behaving fine in school? If that’s the case, then I totally agree that you need to be very present for him and affectionate, but I’m sorry, his behavior is waaaay out of line. You sound like an unbelievably patient and devoted mother, but I really think you’re overthinking it. You are providing your child fully with all his physical and emotional needs. Great, keep doing that. Send him to school and greet him when he gets home with hugs and kisses. But this child needs old fashioned discipline. Certain lines do not get crossed, violence? Calling mommy stupid and other horrible things? Unacceptable. Why would you reward that? No, he doesn’t call you stupid and kick you and receive a hug. You set a timer for cuddle time? I’m exhausted for you. Life is not even steven. The sooner he learns that the better. Your brother got a second longer than you? It’s ok, sometimes you get cuddles a second longer than him. It can’t be perfectly even. You want to play with magna tiles? Sorry honey, it’s bedtime. Don’t negotiate with him! He’s smart, he’s 5 years old, and he wants to play with magna tiles, and you’re opening the door for negotiations. Don’t even start! Listen to the Dave Ramsey rant about saying “no”. It’s a great word, don’t be so scared to use it. You are scared of your child, and he’s smart and senses it. Big no no. Is he scared of your husband? Let him deal with these situations. He needs a healthy fear of authority. Love too. But, yes, fear of authority. And definitely he needs anger management skills. I’m sure parenting courses could help.

mommy201

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 10:31 am

amother [ OP ] wrote:

This and all the other positive parenting advice sounds so lovely in theory, but just doesn't work at all! Here's what happened when, inspired by all of the advice I got here, I tried a more positive approach tonight and tried to avoid power struggles for as long as I could:

I had been warning about bedtime for 20 minutes. At 7:30pm, I told him it's bedtime, we need to go upstairs for snuggles. He is in the middle of playing with magnatiles and says no he wants to continue building. I try validation and empathy "I know you really want to play now. It's so fun to play with magnatiles. But now it's bedtime and we need to go upstairs." Nothing doing; he's not budging. I try creativity "the bedtime horse (me) is leaving on the count of 3. Get on quickly or she's going to leave! (Neighing sounds)." Count to 3, he doesn't move. Move on to consequences. "Snuggles are only for people who are in bed at bedtime. I'm going to walk upstairs now and if you are not there, you're going to miss out on snuggles." I walk up the stairs and still nothing. I'm trying to avoid power struggles, so I take a deep breath and decide to compromise (though I'm not happy about compromising on boundaries). "Ok, if you want to continue playing, we can bring the magna tiles upstairs and you can choose to either get 5 minutes of snuggles or 5 minutes to continue playing." He agrees to this phew, and I help him bring the magnatiles upstairs. But he spitefully tells me "I don't want snuggles because I hate you. You're the worst Mommy!"

After 5 minutes of playing, I tell him "ok, now it's time to get in bed!" He says no, he's not finished making his building. I try validation and empathy, not working. I offer him options ("Do you want me to put you in bed, or do you want to go yourself?") No response. I take a deep breath and remind myself that I don't want to get in a power struggle. I decide to give brother extra snuggles to reinforce the positive behavior of being in bed.

5 year old continues playing for about 10 minutes. I remind him that he needs to get in bed. He runs out of the room and locks himself in the bathroom. 10 minutes later and I am waiting outside the bathroom door to catch him as he opens it. I grab him and talk to him calmly, empathizing/validating and reiterating that it's late and he needs to go back to bed. He refuses. I compromise again "ok you can finish your building for one more minute and then you need to get in bed." He agrees, and actually gets into bed after one minute. I breathe a sigh of relief and start writing my victory post in my head. It is 9pm, but I managed to get him in without a fight.

Unfortunately the night is still young. "I'm hungry," he whines as he walks out of bed again and begins playing with the magnatiles. "I want to go downstairs and eat." Again I try empathizing ("I know you're hungry... but we don't eat after bedtime. You need to get in bed now."). I'm starting to lose it and I threaten "you will not stay up for the Shabbos seudah tomorrow night if you don't get in bed nicely"); he still doesn't listen.

At my wits end, I pick him and he starts kicking and scratching me. I put him in bed and he gets more violent. I tell him I will have to close the door until he is laying in bed nicely. I have brother leave and I close the door. Quiet for a minute. I peek in and see he has turned on the lamp and is playing on the floor. I come in to remove lamp and he starts throwing magna tiles at me. I pick him up and put him in his bed. He starts attacking me and I tell him that if he's going to hurt me and not listen, I'll have to hold him down. I sit on his legs and hold his arms down. He starts crying and screaming "shut up!! shut your mouth!!" Trying to scratch and kick me and repeatedly screaming "shut up!". I calmly repeat over and over "I will let go when you have calmed down and are not hurting Mommy." This goes on for 10 minutes, he's screaming "Get out of here, I hate you! Let me go!"

I tell him I will leave, but the door will only stay open as long as he's in bed. As I'm leaving, he's kicking and scratching me. I close the door, he's trying to open it. He screams that he's in bed. I open the door, he screams "you have to come in here!" I come in and he throws a book at me. I say "If you're going to hurt me, I need to leave." He says "I want to hurt you!!" I leave. This repeats itself 3 times until finally he loses the wind in his sails and lays down (on condition that I stay in his room until he falls asleep).

So please, positive parenters, tell me what you would have done in this situation. All the empathy/validation and calmness accomplished was him being able to drag out bedtime for an extra hour and a half, and it ended in a huge power struggle anyways. (How much longer could I have gone on for?)

I should mention that I made an extra effort today to give him a ton of affection.

Wow! Ok firstly, as I said previously it is not a quick fix. Just because we provide empathy and validation during that moment and had tons of affection that day doesnt mean that it will work. You will definitely see changes but it takes time. It's also hard to explain in detail about the empathy and validation part. Its not only just playing the part and saying the words its actually meaning it, changing your perspective on your child, looking at them differently and constant work on your end. It takes time but its much deeper then just validating - even though this alone would make a difference. Its not about getting a situation in itself under control but rather a mindset shift that your child will sense and will ultimately change along with you. I can't go in to what the deeper meaning is and what else needs to be done or else this post would be endless.

Let me try to break it down for you.

I had been warning about bedtime for 20 minutes. At 7:30pm, I told him it's bedtime, we need to go upstairs for snuggles. He is in the middle of playing with magnatiles and says no he wants to continue building. I try validation and empathy "I know you really want to play now. It's so fun to play with magnatiles. But now it's bedtime and we need to go upstairs." Nothing doing; he's not budging. I try creativity "the bedtime horse (me) is leaving on the count of 3. Get on quickly or she's going to leave! (Neighing sounds)." Count to 3, he doesn't move. Move on to consequences. "Snuggles are only for people who are in bed at bedtime. I'm going to walk upstairs now and if you are not there, you're going to miss out on snuggles." I walk up the stairs and still nothing. I'm trying to avoid power struggles, so I take a deep breath and decide to compromise (though I'm not happy about compromising on boundaries). "Ok, if you want to continue playing, we can bring the magna tiles upstairs and you can choose to either get 5 minutes of snuggles or 5 minutes to continue playing." He agrees to this phew, and I help him bring the magnatiles upstairs. But he spitefully tells me "I don't want snuggles because I hate you. You're the worst Mommy!"

All your techniques really sound great and kudos to you for trying! I totally get you for resorting to consequences after 2 attempts, this is so normal and I sometimes do it myself but it's not really ideal. I would have rather kept empathizing and and gently taken in his hand and brought him to bed. Even if he continues to resist, keep empathizing and bring him to bed. They will not likely be violent while you are empathizing since they feel that connection and love. (although its not set in stone and can happen the first few times) Or I would have put a choice in his hand - Do you want 5 more min of playing/or extra snuggle time - (in addition to the regular snuggle time). On a mature kid you can even ask them to come up with a solution. " I know you really want to play, however, its bedtime now - what do you think is a good idea." They would probably answer stay up the whole night and you can say, you know we cant do that since its not whats best for us and mommy wants what is best for us so how about we do 5/10 min. Maybe he pops in and say 10/15 min - and if something you can swing I would allow it.

I think once you resorted to consequences/punishment. I know punishment sounds severe but in reality its the same thing. Its punishing to them to remove cuddle time - you are taking something away from him. He was testing you til now and this confirmed that once he tests you a few times, then you resort to consequences and that does not help the love and connection. So he would feel like he is back to square one.

After 5 minutes of playing, I tell him "ok, now it's time to get in bed!" He says no, he's not finished making his building. I try validation and empathy, not working. I offer him options ("Do you want me to put you in bed, or do you want to go yourself?") No response. I take a deep breath and remind myself that I don't want to get in a power struggle. I decide to give brother extra snuggles to reinforce the positive behavior of being in bed.

I dont agree with giving brother extra snuggles to reinforce positive behavior. Love and warmth and connection should not be contingent on behavior. This probably nothing to help his behavior.

5 year old continues playing for about 10 minutes. I remind him that he needs to get in bed. He runs out of the room and locks himself in the bathroom. 10 minutes later and I am waiting outside the bathroom door to catch him as he opens it. I grab him and talk to him calmly, empathizing/validating and reiterating that it's late and he needs to go back to bed. He refuses. I compromise again "ok you can finish your building for one more minute and then you need to get in bed." He agrees, and actually gets into bed after one minute. I breathe a sigh of relief and start writing my victory post in my head. It is 9pm, but I managed to get him in without a fight.

This is good! It is okay to compromise sometimes.

Unfortunately the night is still young. "I'm hungry," he whines as he walks out of bed again and begins playing with the magnatiles. "I want to go downstairs and eat." Again I try empathizing ("I know you're hungry... but we don't eat after bedtime. You need to get in bed now."). I'm starting to lose it and I threaten "you will not stay up for the Shabbos seudah tomorrow night if you don't get in bed nicely"); he still doesn't listen.

At my wits end, I pick him and he starts kicking and scratching me. I put him in bed and he gets more violent. I tell him I will have to close the door until he is laying in bed nicely. I have brother leave and I close the door. Quiet for a minute. I peek in and see he has turned on the lamp and is playing on the floor. I come in to remove lamp and he starts throwing magna tiles at me. I pick him up and put him in his bed. He starts attacking me and I tell him that if he's going to hurt me and not listen, I'll have to hold him down. I sit on his legs and hold his arms down. He starts crying and screaming "shut up!! shut your mouth!!" Trying to scratch and kick me and repeatedly screaming "shut up!". I calmly repeat over and over "I will let go when you have calmed down and are not hurting Mommy." This goes on for 10 minutes, he's screaming "Get out of here, I hate you! Let me go!"

Totally get you for threatening. We are all guilty of this. Its so frustrating after trying to stay calm for so long and then we just lose it. Yes again, even though its hard a threat is another form of punishment so this did nothing to help deescalate the situation as well. If anything as you described it only escalated.

Also closing the door on him until he laying nicely is a another form of consequence. ( I would have maybe just let him play at this point) Here is where he got a little more violent (again I dont know you and him personally but I dont think there is anything wrong with him, he is just a healthy child reacting due to a situation. It doesnt have to continue being the norm though) I would have held him down because it is not ok to hurt but I would have tried to empathize through it - " you are feeling so angry. Oy, it must be so hard to have all those feelings in you... keep repeating while holding him close so that he doesnt continue to hurt. Just empathize. No discussing how to be better when he's in this mode. He has to be calm for that. I believe he might have eventually calmed down.

You really tried hard and definitely are on the right track! Just because I am saying what would have been the ideal situation, does not mean that I am perfect and I never resort to punishment, threats.... But it has been so much less then a few years ago and I have seen tremendous positive changes with me and my children. It builds up their maturity, emotional health and yes I have a generally happy home B'H. Obviously we have to daven for Hashem's help in this as well as parenting is not easy! All I can say is that it sounds so hard to control yourself from resorting to consequences and it is hard in the beginning. But, it becomes 2nd nature eventually and it gets so much easier and the whole atmosphere in the house changes.

Hatzlacha Raba!

Again I highly recommend talking to Blimie Heller or taking her course. I never felt that a parenting course can help out basically every parent because it taps into the essence of what we are and our relationships. And is so Torah true based. (other course I personally have found are more techniquey and only work for some types of parents...)

Mommyg8

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 10:32 am

OP, some thoughts after reading your post:

I once tried validation on my (then) five year old. I said "I know you really want to buy x,y,z but we can't buy it right now, so sorry". He just asked again and started crying harder. Later in the week I asked my older kids what they think happened. They said - "when you validate his feelings, you're making him think that maybe you will change your mind". So I guess this method doesn't work for everybody.

The second thing I was thinking was that he sounds unhappy and angry about something. I wonder if there's a way to get out of him what's bothering him? Maybe in a happy and calm moment you can try?

Third, if I were doing a positive method I would do it differently. I would offer a prize if he goes to sleep nicely on time. I've promised a trip to Rita's, 7-11... I would make the first prize just for one night so it's attainable, and once that happens see from there.

Fourth, I would maybe remove snuggles from the bedtime routine. I think someone mentioned this upthread, but it's not a good idea to link affection to good behavior. You love him just because. And he should know that.

Fifth, giving lots of love and affection is not a quick fix solution. It's pretty much the most important aspect of parenting, but you don't see results as quickly as a day. You may need weeks and months of UNCONDITIONAL love and affection for your relationship to get better.

Hatzlacha!

#BestBubby

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 10:39 am

For thousands of years, such terrible behavior was virtually non-existent. Parents would have "nipped it in the bud" by age 3.

I don't know if this modern parenting is a good idea. If this kid does not learn
respect or empathy for others, he will be a real abusive jerk and I pity his
wife and kids.

Last edited by #BestBubby on Fri, Sep 13 2019, 10:40 am; edited 1 time in total

mommy201

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 10:40 am

Mommyg8 wrote:

[I]

Sometimes its better to set the boundary first and then empathize/validate after they complain about the boundary. But even if he was thinking that would change your mind, what is wrong? You don't have to change your mind and then he'll learn that this is the new way that Mommy feels for me and after a few times wont throw tantrums (even though there is nothing wrong with crying or tantrums)

keym

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 10:54 am

OP, running through the whole thing, I'll tell you what I would do.
20 min warning.
10 min warning
5 min warning.
1 min warning.
"Yossi it is bedtime now. Time to go upstairs".
Don't wanna
"Yossi, we had so much fun playing magna tiles. But playing time is over, now it's sleeping time. "
No. I wanna play.
"Yossi, look at Mommy. I am writing a note so no one breaks this beautiful house so you can play more tomorrow."
Still refuses, pick him up or leading him to bed.
All the time I say "yossi made a beautiful house out of magna tiles. Now we're going to go to sleep. When we wake up, we'll play more."
Stupid Mommy. Screams yells.
(Ignore).
Bring him to bathroom, brush teeth, put him in bed.
The whole time, I prefer to talk as if to myself, musing, about all the stuff he did today and what he'll do tomorrow.
It usually lowers his temperature and distracts him enough.
Put him in bed, tuck him in. Snuggles, stroke hair, sing I love Yossi song, sit on bed, CD.
It takes time but I ignore most outbursts, continue on goal (calm bedtime) and talk, distract.
The goal being to lower his emotional temperature, and keep mine steady even while keeping "rules" and not giving in.
Also, I try to minimize fights. In bed, required. Head on pillow, who cares.
Hatzlocha

Chayalle

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 11:05 am

I wonder what would happen if for a couple of nights, you let him stay up and do his own thing till he collapses from exhaustion and begs you to put him to bed.

Laiya

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 11:32 am

Chayalle wrote:

I wonder what would happen if for a couple of nights, you let him stay up and do his own thing till he collapses from exhaustion and begs you to put him to bed.

I was thinking along these lines too, along with what Joyinthe morning said about picking your battles. You really want to get away from the threats and the power struggles bec the goal is for him to want to do the right thing and to make good decisions on his own.

So, if he's turning everything into a power struggle, what are your options? Either, a massive show of force, or, completely disengage. I would go with disengaging.

Have a talk with him during the day: Yossi, I hate fighting with you every night. I love you, I don't want to fight with you. I'm not going to do it anymore. I'm only going to tell you the time. You're a big boy. I'm sure you'll make a good decision. Just remember that after your bedtime, I will not be available for good night stories or cuddles or kisses, and I won't be going into your room. Those can only come before bedtime.

The key is, you have to really disengage with him. You won't fight with him but, after 8pm, you won't speak or interact with him AT ALL. You will give him zero attention. Busy yourself in another room. No cuddles. No negotiating. If he doesn't get why you're ignoring him, say calmly, It's bedtime. I'll see you in the morning. Repeat it like a broken record.

I'm guessing he'll try testing ways to get a reaction from you at first. Pretend not to see things. He unwinds the floss? You didn't notice. He's screaming? Go to another room and start folding laundry. He hits his brother? Give the brother attention. He wants another kiss? Just repeat the sentence: I'll see you in the morning.

#BestBubby

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 11:36 am

Laiya wrote:

Lesson Learned: Being a rotten abusive jerk means winning and getting your way.
Way to go, Enlightened Modern Moms.

Laiya

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 11:53 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Lesson Learned: Being a rotten abusive jerk means winning and getting your way.
Way to go, Enlightened Modern Moms.

Once you make a rule, that rule should be followed through and enforced. Every parent decides how much independence vs enforcement they want to give children. If you choose not to make something a rule, then there's nothing for the dc to win. If you think there's something wrong with running a more easy-going type of home, then that's a different conversation.

Yes there are issues for OP to deal with, name calling is not acceptable. I suggested she try to back away from power struggles and see if that helps.

amother

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 11:57 am

Laiya wrote:

How do you avoid power struggles and still enforce the rule when all positive attempts to enforce have failed?

Bedtime cannot be negotiable in my house. I have other children, and if one child is allowed to refuse bedtime, they all will. I work at night and need the kids to be sleeping by a certain time. I also desperately need that time and space to myself after a full day of Mommying and working. Lastly and perhaps most importantly, my children need their sleep. If my 5 year old gets less than 11.5 hours of sleep at night, he will be cranky the entire next day.

mommy201

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 11:58 am

#BestBubby wrote:

Lesson Learned: Being a rotten abusive jerk means winning and getting your way.
Way to go, Enlightened Modern Moms.

I'm just curious, did you ever call your kids to their face - rotten abusive jerks? Or was it only behind their backs?

amother

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:01 pm

keym wrote:

Thank you so much to you and everyone else who is taking the time to respond.
This sounds nice in theory and I'm really happy for you that it works for you, but we would get stuck around the "Bring him to bathroom, brush teeth, put him in bed." part as you can see from my earlier narrative - he fights tooth and nail.
"Put him in bed, tuck him in. Snuggles, stroke hair, sing I love Yossi song, sit on bed, CD."
Not possible when he is attacking me and screaming.

keym

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:02 pm

mommy201 wrote:

I'm just curious, did you ever call your kids to their face - rotten abusive jerks? Or was it only behind their backs?

No, no. You got it wrong.
Her kids were obedient robots who marched on the fear that they would be beaten. That's why they're no rotten, abusive jerks like all of our kids.

mommy201

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:05 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

It is ok for bedtime to be a rule in your house if that's a boundary that you set. To some mothers its not as important as other rules.

I tried to provide an idea of how you can avoid power struggles and enforce normal boundaries but it probably appears too difficult to start since its seems so detailed :-) Hatzlacha with everything.

#BestBubby

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:06 pm

mommy201 wrote:

I'm just curious, did you ever call your kids to their face - rotten abusive jerks? Or was it only behind their backs?

keym wrote:

No, no. You got it wrong.
Her kids were obedient robots who marched on the fear that they would be beaten. That's why they're no rotten, abusive jerks like all of our kids.

My children were virtually always respectful and obedient. Not because I was strict,
but because Hashem gave me easy, compliant children.

I never beat my children. A look or a few words was enough. I realize that I was LUCKY, and other parents have more challenging children - and the children were BORN with these rebellious natures.

But how the parent handles these children will either make the problem better or worse.

And I think it is just common sense that if a child wins by being a Monster, you are
creating a Monster.

I am a SEIT and was taught (ABA) that you never reward bad behavior - that is just reinforcing the bad behavior.

mommy201

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:15 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

My children were virtually always respectful and obedient. Not because I was strict,
but because Hashem gave me easy, compliant children.

I realize that other parents have more challenging children - and the children were BORN with these rebellious natures.

But how the parent handles these children will either make the problem better or worse.

And I think it is just common sense that if a child wins by being a Monster, you are
creating a Monster.

I am a SEIT and was taught (ABA) that you never reward bad behavior - that is just reinforcing the bad behavior.

Lucky you. Parenting is not easy for almost everyone, even with the "easier" children. I'm wondering how it was so easy for you.

Also your basing what you think will turn kids in to monsters not on your own children, but on a Behaviorial Based Therapy - which is a type of therapy. Doesn't mean that it's the only right therapy ( I happen to disagree with the whole ABA therapy) It doesn't mean that it doesn't work. I'm sure it does (sometimes). But that doesn't necessarily make it right. And it doesn't mean that other things don't work. I actually know of an ABA therapist who starting learning and practicing this gentle parenting approach and stopped practicing ABA since it went against all her beliefs and she had a deeper meaning and understanding of how to deal with children.

So you basically have no personal and actual experience or proof of this kind of parenting working or not working for parents and children (not school or therapy), since you had such easy kids who turned out great without you having to resort to harsh parenting. So a lot of what you are saying is just assumptions.

A therapist or SEIT is not a mother and has a different kind of relationship with their student/client then a mother should have with their children.

keym

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:16 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

Skip teeth brushing. Brush morning and after supper. Not perfect.
Of course he's screaming at the beginning.
Take him in his bed. Hold him with his back to you. So he can't hurt you, but you're holding him.
Sing I love Yossi, talk I love Yossi. No matter how loud he gets, you need to keep your voice calm and factual. If you start yelling, then he feeds off that.
He's a little, angry boy, not an abusive monster.
And yes it takes time and patience. And the beginning is really really rough.
But riding it out is worth it. A boy who knows that rules are rules, but Mommy loves me and can be counted on to be calm even when he feels out of control.

mommy201

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:23 pm

keym wrote:

Agree! And I always hear that these are the kind of children that are the biggest doers when they get older and give lots of Nachas since they have so much passion and also because they sometimes serve as a wake-up call to the parents to change their parenting mode for the positive.

#BestBubby

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 12:24 pm

mommy201 wrote:

I am basing my belief on nearly 6,000 years of history, where parents were strict (corporal punishment) and the type of behavior described in this thread and other threads was virtually non-existent. That's a fact.

It is only when "modern, enlightened" parenting started that defiant children started being so common.

In 1940s the biggest discipline problem in public schools were:
gum-chewing, talking in class, littering.

In 2019 the biggest discipline problem in public schools are:
school shootings (murder), rape, assaults and robbery

Doesn't look like the no-corporal-punishment philosophy is producing gentler children.
Violence in children is skyrocketing!