Home

Husband potched 5 year old for hitting
  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next  Last >>
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Parenting our children

View latest: 24h 48h 72h


amother




Burgundy


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:51 pm
I'm feeling a little baffled by this. The father didn't beat him up. He didn't hit him with a belt, or smack him.
Yes, I think people should avoid potching.
But given the circumstances, I don't think what he the father did was terrible. And I do think it shows the child that he can't get away with behaving the way he has.
Back to top

amother




Bisque


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:53 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
It sent a mixed message to the five year old. Why am I not allowed to potch and hurt people but Totty is allowed to potch and hurt me?

Because you get back what you give.
Back to top

Chayalle




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:54 pm
trixx wrote:
How did no one address this?
A child isn't an animal. A child lashing out is a child in pain. Being sent to a corner will not help him deal with his overwhelming emotions or help his little body calm down and get re-regulated. What kind of thoughts are marching thru his mind as he sits in time out? I'm bad, mommy hates me, I can't be part of my family (!!?!!)

Such a kid, even tho you want to slap the living daylights out of them, needs time IN. They need a snuggle and a hug. This is not permissive and it's not new agey and it's not soft. This is realizing that the kid is in pain and can't manage his intense emotions. Why is he hitting, why can't he use his words? Clearly he hasn't mastered the impulse and sitting in time out won't teach him that.

Not to say that he shouldn't be removed from the situation. He should be - but not left to "figure it out" on his own. Time out teaches nothing.

OP read Positive Discipline


We can agree to disagree.

I was told this concept by Mrs. Leah Trenk. She has been giving parenting classes in Lakewood for many years, and is considered to be an expert by many people I respect. She is amazing at helping parents with behavior modification in children, where needed.

She actually told this to me in reference to an issue I was having with one of my children when that child was two years old and was biting in playgroup. Other parents were ready to have my child kicked out of playgroup - don't blame them, no one wants their toddler to be bitten by another child. I paid for my child's Morah to have a session with Mrs. Trenk, and my child was no longer biting within days - her method worked.

And the way she explained the concept to me is - a child that is hurting others needs to be restrained, and taught that we cannot be among other children when we hurt them, and yes, she used the example of lions and tigers in cages.

BTW - this child was a long awaited child, after several years of IF. She did not lack for hugs and kisses and cuddling. Regardless, she had the instinct to bite (she is rather sensory, which may have contributed) and did so. I believe it was the biggest service to her to teach her not to hurt others, so that she can function normally and attend normal playgroups, school, etc...

Just as I believe that the OP's child would be best served to learn how to behave himself within his family unit, with calm boundaries in place.

Not every child hurts others because they are in pain and need more hugs and kisses. Some simply need to understand boundaries in order to gain self-control.

I agree with your last sentence. Simply putting a child in timeout has no effect if the child does not understand to what purpose he or she is there. A calm conversation with the child, explaining what he needs to do in order to rejoin the family outside of his room, corner, etc...is definitely necessary.
Back to top

Laiya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:55 pm
OP, it seems the problem is that you haven't found an effective method to deal with your ds's misbehavior. Also missing from your OP is the reason for the violence. Attention seeking? Low frustration tolerance, maybe combined with fatigue and hunger? Or is there something else going on altogether? Was this behavior a sudden, radical change for him? What triggers it? Maybe if you post more info people will be able to offer better suggestions.
Back to top

nechamashifra




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:55 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
My 5 year old is going through a stage (for about 2 months already) where he gets violent when he is upset, including hitting, scratching, throwing things etc. I have suffered some real scratches from him. None of the disciplinary methods I've been using seem to help, and today my husband got so fed up when my son threw something at him that he angrily potched him (on his arm), yelled at him that he is not allowed to hurt people, and put him in his room. This was gut-wrenching for me to watch as I strongly believe potching is harmful, but my husband insists that this is the only way because nothing I'm doing is helping, and this kid needs to know he cannot cross a red line of hurting his parents.

What do you all think? I'm feeling so torn.


You say your son has been like this for 2 months only. What was he like before? If a child suddenly changes their behaviour, it usually means something is up or something happened. It could be something minor, like a move or a new baby etc but it could also mean a classmate is bullying him or he is anxious about something. I would try to get to the bottom of it.
Back to top

OutATowner




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:59 pm
Didnt read responses, so I'm sorry if I'm off...but you are not going to teach a kid not to hit by hitting. Same for yelling at them not to yell.
Back to top

Laiya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:04 pm
Chayalle wrote:
We can agree to disagree.

I was told this concept by Mrs. Leah Trenk. She has been giving parenting classes in Lakewood for many years, and is considered to be an expert by many people I respect. She is amazing at helping parents with behavior modification in children, where needed.

She actually told this to me in reference to an issue I was having with one of my children when that child was two years old and was biting in playgroup. Other parents were ready to have my child kicked out of playgroup - don't blame them, no one wants their toddler to be bitten by another child. I paid for my child's Morah to have a session with Mrs. Trenk, and my child was no longer biting within days - her method worked.

And the way she explained the concept to me is - a child that is hurting others needs to be restrained, and taught that we cannot be among other children when we hurt them, and yes, she used the example of lions and tigers in cages.

BTW - this child was a long awaited child, after several years of IF. She did not lack for hugs and kisses and cuddling. Regardless, she had the instinct to bite (she is rather sensory, which may have contributed) and did so. I believe it was the biggest service to her to teach her not to hurt others, so that she can function normally and attend normal playgroups, school, etc...

Just as I believe that the OP's child would be best served to learn how to behave himself within his family unit, with calm boundaries in place.

Not every child hurts others because they are in pain and need more hugs and kisses. Some simply need to understand boundaries in order to gain self-control.


I agree with your last sentence. Simply putting a child in timeout has no effect if the child does not understand to what purpose he or she is there. A calm conversation with the child, explaining what he needs to do in order to rejoin the family outside of his room, corner, etc...is definitely necessary.


I agree with this, and especially the bolded. Much of parenting is about reinforcing behavior, positive or negative. Even if a child hurts others because he is emotionally hurting, he still needs to know that hurting others is not acceptable. I would think hugs and cuddles would be positive reinforcement for the bad behavior.

Give the hugs and cuddles--after he makes amends. Ie, calms down, apologizes properly, etc. Then the hugs are reinforcing him taking responsibility.
Here's a great post on how to help kids apologize:
http://www.cuppacocoa.com/a-be.....orry/
Back to top

little neshamala




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:06 pm
leah233 wrote:
No It's teaching him that if you hit someone they will hit you back ..


This is so not ok. No. We do not hit our children to teach them they'll get hit back. Oh gosh, NO.
Back to top

amother




Powderblue


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:12 pm
mommy201 wrote:
Firstly, you don't know that entitled kids and teenagers come from the hands-off parents.
I would go furthur to say that the "spoiled, entitled kids" come from parents who've had their parents be hands-on (not in a good way)
and not teach their children how to communicate effectively which leads to them not teaching their own children children effective communication and relationship building which leads to "entitled and spoiled".
It doesnt mean that because someone parents in a gentle fashion that they are going to be left with spoiled kids. Its not one or the other. More likely the gentle parent will be more understanding and empathetic and help their children much more then the other tough approaches.

Of course I don’t know that on an individual basis but what I do know (and would think most people agree), is that today’s kids and teenagers (and many young married adults) are by and large far more spoiled, bratty and entitled than the previous generation.

At the same time we would all agree that the no-spanking hands off approach is much more embraced and accepted in today’s parenting world.

Hence the logical conclusion that the modern softy approach of handling our kids with feather gloves and c”v never laying a firm hand on them to keep them a little in line is contributing to raising a new generation of spoiled bratty people.

I was spanked once a while as a kid and so were many of my friends. All of us survived and are probably less bratty and entitled because of it.
Back to top

little neshamala




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:12 pm
leah233 wrote:
I never said you can hit a child ONLY to show him what it feels like. I said that you can hit a child to show what it feels like and there will be serious consequences if he does it again. After all other efforts at discipline have already failed.


I understood what you said. I still dont think you can hit a child to show him wha it feels like, even after all efforts at discipline have failed. What if your child scratches? Punches? Pinches? Can you do the same to him, to teach him?

This entire method is so wrong.

I agree that a child left to do this is a big problem, and that serious chinuch needs to be administered. But I also believe that serious chinuch is possible without physical punishment. There are countless stories from our Gedolim who "potched" a wild child by giving a tiny tap, and cried the whole time. That is a far cry from hitting to show him what its like
Back to top

Laiya




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:15 pm
amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:
Of course I don’t know that on an individual basis but what I do know (and would think most people agree), is that today’s kids and teenagers (and many young married adults) are by and large far more spoiled, bratty and entitled than the previous generation.

At the same time we would all agree that the no-spanking hands off approach is much more embraced and accepted in today’s parenting world.

Hence the logical conclusion that the modern softy approach of handling our kids with feather gloves and c”v never laying a firm hand on them to keep them a little in line is contributing to raising a new generation of spoiled bratty people.

I was spanked once a while as a kid and so were many of my friends. All of us survived and are probably less bratty and entitled because of it.


I think the strict corporal punishment and other methods of previous generations contributed to lots of emotional dysfunction, and society still hasn't figured out how to get the right balance.
Back to top

amother




Powderblue


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:22 pm
Laiya wrote:
I think the strict methods of previous generations contributed to lots of emotional dysfunction, and society still hasn't figured out how to get the right balance.

I agree, but I think you’re probably referring to the real old school method (post war generation) of almost daily corporal punishment and sometimes even in the form of belting and beatings.
I’m talking about a generation after that who took a much more moderate and balanced approach. A spanking wasn’t on the daily menu at home or school. But we knew it was always hanging there as a last resort approach. And even when used it was a just a firm smack or two, nothing like the harsh beatings of yesteryear.
Back to top

mommy201




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:28 pm
Laiya wrote:
I think the strict corporal punishment and other methods of previous generations contributed to lots of emotional dysfunction, and society still hasn't figured out how to get the right balance.


I second this. The strict, scary parenting of the previous generation in which children never expressed their emotions, stood up for themselves, were just shushed for fear of punishment. This does nothing to show that parenting was better in those days. Am I not sure which is worse. Unexpressive, emotionally unhealthy people or spoiled and entitled children. This does not prove that previous generation parenting is better off then the parenting today of no boundaries and consequences (which is no good either). The reason why we don't see the negative aspects of previous generation parenting was because everything was kept cooped up inside. I am sure direct families can tell you of the suffering as a result.
Perhaps we also here so much about entitled and spoiled today is because therapy and parenting class are much more the norm, so we hear more about the issues. But at least many of these people are going for therapy and changing their parenting style. Its a step in the right direction which was not done in the previous generation.
Sorry for going off on a tangent :-)
Back to top

amother




Blonde


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:29 pm
amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:
I agree, but I think you’re probably referring to the real old school method (post war generation) of almost daily corporal punishment and sometimes even in the form of belting and beatings.
I’m talking about a generation after that who took a much more moderate and balanced approach. A spanking wasn’t on the daily menu at home or school. But we know it was always hanging there as a last resort approach. And even when used it was a just a firm smack or two, nothing like the harsh beatings of yesteryear.


You're so reasonable. Why is it that people have such a hard time finding a balance? The Torah allows a plotch as a last resort for an out of control, defiant child, before he gorws up to be an out of control, deviant adult.
Back to top

mommy201




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:37 pm
amother [ Powderblue ] wrote:
I agree, but I think you’re probably referring to the real old school method (post war generation) of almost daily corporal punishment and sometimes even in the form of belting and beatings.
I’m talking about a generation after that who took a much more moderate and balanced approach. A spanking wasn’t on the daily menu at home or school. But we knew it was always hanging there as a last resort approach. And even when used it was a just a firm smack or two, nothing like the harsh beatings of yesteryear.


If you are talking about mid-generation parenting from 20-40 years ago then you are in fact stating that the people that parented in a "normal way", are the ones with the bratty spoiled kids. So that method didn't work effectively.

The gentle parenting that has become more acceptable today in the last 10/15 years are people with children that are barely teens or young adults. How do you know they will turn out entitled and spoiled. I think not. They will imh be the healthiest of em all!

This is not to say that there weren't those who parented this way in the previous generation, but it was much less popular then it is today, and that's why these parenting imamother posts involve mother either heavily pro or heavily against.
Back to top

#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:37 pm
thunderstorm wrote:
It sent a mixed message to the five year old. Why am I not allowed to potch and hurt people but Totty is allowed to potch and hurt me?


Because he's the Totty and the Torah recommends potching:

"He who withholds his rod, HATES his son" Mishlei

Why is Totty allowed to drive but a five year old can't?

Why is Mommy allowed to cook but a five year old can't?

Why can a Parent put a kid in "time-out" or confiscate a belonging, but a kid can't do that to his parent?

This is liberal brainwashing that puts 5 y.o. on an equal level as parents/adults.

There is a difference between how a parent hits and how a child hits:

A parent gives a smack on the bottom or hand - children hit on the head or back, often punch with a fist, kick, scratch. There is a difference.


Last edited by #BestBubby on Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top

#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:42 pm
Chayalle wrote:
Re-read the book. The author describes her father's method of discipline very clearly. He used to take her into a room, and then he took out his belt, and HE HIT THE BEDPOST, NOT HER, with his belt.

In other words, he gave the message of discipline over very powerfully, but she was not a physical target.

It's interesting.


In another part of the book, Ruchoma Shain, relates that her father once came over and gave her a smack on the hand.

Then the mother told the father, "I didn't mean Ruchoma" (must have been another child who misbehaved towards the mother).

The father didn't apologize and said "Ruchoma must have done something else that deserved a potch."
Back to top

little neshamala




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:42 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
Because he's the Totty and the Torah recommends potching:

"He who withholds his rod, HATES his son" Mishlei
.


Meforshim explain this to not be a literal rod. Because of the way mishlei is written, with each verse following the same pattern, besides for this one. The second half of this verse does not follow "whoever hates his son withholds the rod" the way the other verses continued.
This is explained to mean not a physical rod, but chinuch.

I have seen this in print, heard it in shiurim, and heard who wrote this in a sefer, but of course I forgot the specifics.

Its not meant to be interpreted literally.
Back to top

amother




Ruby


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:45 pm
Just want to say for all those, posting that they were potched and turned out fine, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not its a good idea.
As a child I was told on a few occasions that I was a monster, a bad girl, and a "disgusting" girl by my overwhelmed mother. I turned out fine, actually, but that still wasnt proper chinuch
Back to top

#BestBubby




 
 
 


Post  Wed, Sep 11 2019, 2:45 pm
little neshamala wrote:
Meforshim explain this to not be a literal rod. Because of the way mishlei is written, with each verse following the same pattern, besides for this one. The second half of this verse does not follow "whoever hates his son withholds the rod" the way the other verses continued.
This is explained to mean not a physical rod, but chinuch.

I have seen this in print, heard it in shiurim, and heard who wrote this in a sefer, but of course I forgot the specifics.

Its not meant to be interpreted literally.


I heard it does not HAVE to mean corporal punishment, the second half of the possuk talks about giving VERBAL Rebuke - but it can include corporal punishment.

There is no question that Jewish parents have a Mesorah of corporal punishment.
Teachers (Rebbeim) also used corporal punishment.

There is a halacha about not to hit children in the 3 weeks, or is it the 9 days.

Even Beis Din used corporal punishment on adults.
Back to top
  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next  Last >> Recent Topics

Page 3 of 10 View latest: 24h 48h 72h


Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum -> Parenting our children

Related Topics Replies Last Post
Dd 15 year old tells me to shut up
by amother
29 Today at 4:08 pm View last post
Please say tehillem for my 91 year old father thank you
by amother
7 Yesterday at 7:29 pm View last post
by Lita
Half Year Seminary and Shidduchim
by amother
12 Yesterday at 3:43 pm View last post
When is Yeshiva week this year? 5 Yesterday at 9:06 am View last post
Gift husband
by amother
4 Sun, Dec 01 2019, 7:26 am View last post

Jump to: