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Husband potched 5 year old for hitting
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:42 pm
little neshamala wrote:
This is so not ok. No. We do not hit our children to teach them they'll get hit back. Oh gosh, NO.

She didn't say that's the reason for spanking.

But it is the lesson. All of the posts saying "oooh, no, it just teaches kids that it's OK to hit" - um, no, it teaches them that it's OK to hit back in order to make someone stop hitting them, if nothing else has worked.

Personally, I'm 100% fine with my kids learning that lesson.

I agree that spanking isn't a great parenting tool, and in an ideal world no parent would ever hit in anger. But in the circumstances OP describes, it wasn't something that's going to teach her kid bad morals. Not ideal, but not terrible, either.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 1:53 pm
OP, I think what your dh did is understandable, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Nothing you've been doing has worked so far. It's been all of two months. It takes a lot longer than that for a child to master self-control.

Hitting risks turning it into a fun game for your kid. OK, maybe "fun" is the wrong word. But on some level, making adults furiously angry is exciting for a kid. Getting in a battle of wills is exciting. In most cases, boring discipline is better discipline.

And hitting risks damaging your relationship with your kid.

I think you and your dh need to sit down and decide together how you're going to deal with this. Just because you haven't magically solved the issue in all of eight weeks doesn't mean you have to do whatever he suggests now. If he genuinely doesn't agree with your approach, then the two of you together can ask an expert.

Having a plan and a timeline might make it easier for him (your dh) to control himself next time. Spanking/severe punishment tends to come from a fear of losing control, like, "if I don't teach him RIGHT NOW that this is NOT OK, then he is going to be a horrible brat forever and my life will be miserable." Change that mental script to something more hopeful, and it'll be easier for everyone.
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#BestBubby




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 4:41 pm
mommy201 wrote:
Firstly about the pasuk earlier. "Choshech Shifto Soneh Bino" the literal translation is rod/sticks. But it is known not to be used in its literal term. Its actually compared to a shepherds stick like Moshe Rabeinu, and means to guide and lead. in essence it means to discipline (not hit).
The ksav sofer says that it actually means discipline for the parents and not the children.
Reb yaakov Weinberger says it means to discipline them to teach them to be good ppl. we have an obligation of chinuch and we are also required in all the other mitzvos that include "not to a hurt another human being, onas devarim....)This applies to parents as well. The only time you are allowed hurt physically, if it is the ONLY way to mechanech them because chinuch overrides. However, if there is a different way to be mechanech a child effectively you are not allowed to use this method and it is considered cruel. Since there is enough of other gentle parenting that works then all these methods are never ok.


But if you tried the kinder gentler methods and they didn't work, then you are allowed to potch. OP said for two months they tried to get the kid to stop hitting, out-of-control
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unexpected




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 5:23 pm
My son used to be out of control all the time, with hurting me and his siblings. (Interestingly, he never hit his father because he knew his father wouldn't tolerate it) At one point, after trying many different methods over the course of a year and speaking with experts in the field someone who was watching me deal with him observed that he never sees me get angry, and if he would, he might be scared. Guess what? I tried it, it worked. The next time he hit, I yelled at him and when he came crying to me I stood up and walked away from him. I can't say it worked overnight but he definitely internalized that we weren't tolerating his behavior anymore and he became much more manageable. I think, many times a family gets embroiled in a bad pattern and need to be shocked out of it. A 5 year old child that is able to behave in yeshiva and with his friends and presents with no underlying issues, who hits and hurts his family members, who are all nicer to him than he is to them, is not a child in pain. He is a child who needs a potch.
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amother
Beige


 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 7:15 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
My 5 year old is going through a stage (for about 2 months already) where he gets violent when he is upset, including hitting, scratching, throwing things etc. I have suffered some real scratches from him. None of the disciplinary methods I've been using seem to help, and today my husband got so fed up when my son threw something at him that he angrily potched him (on his arm), yelled at him that he is not allowed to hurt people, and put him in his room. This was gut-wrenching for me to watch as I strongly believe potching is harmful, but my husband insists that this is the only way because nothing I'm doing is helping, and this kid needs to know he cannot cross a red line of hurting his parents.

What do you all think? I'm feeling so torn.


You can explain to your husband it's hard for you to watch hitting, but honestly, it sounds like you are judging your husband...and trying to give him a message that he is doing it wrong....and no shalom bayis is worse for your child than the potch

You don't really have a place between the father and son. We are not talking about abuse here. Your son will handle his father, he will learn who he is.


All posters who are giving the message that the husband did something wrong-what help is that to OP? If he did something wrong it's between him and Hashem, it's not up to his wife to change his chinuch method.

Again, we are not talking about abuse here.

For those of you that think a single potch is abuse, remember that is just your personal opinion
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mommy201




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:04 pm
#BestBubby wrote:
But if you tried the kinder gentler methods and they didn't work, then you are allowed to potch. OP said for two months they tried to get the kid to stop hitting, out-of-control


I doubt they tried the method I use because it has worked for anyone that has tried it. I used to also think I was being calm and gentle until I learned what it really meant.

I am not talking specifically about OP in this case. (I don’t think her situation was that bad at all) but just discussing this as a chinuch topic.
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mommy201




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:09 pm
amother [ Beige ] wrote:
You can explain to your husband it's hard for you to watch hitting, but honestly, it sounds like you are judging your husband...and trying to give him a message that he is doing it wrong....and no shalom bayis is worse for your child than the potch

You don't really have a place between the father and son. We are not talking about abuse here. Your son will handle his father, he will learn who he is.


All posters who are giving the message that the husband did something wrong-what help is that to OP? If he did something wrong it's between him and Hashem, it's not up to his wife to change his chinuch method.

Again, we are not talking about abuse here.

For those of you that think a single potch is abuse, remember that is just your personal opinion


I don’t think many people were specifically referring to OP as in telling her what she or her husband did was bad. I think this just lead to more of a topic of conversation on parenting/hitting....
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amother
OP


 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:21 pm
Wow, thank you so much to everyone for your replies, opinions and insights. This really generated quite a discussion. It's so interesting to see how many proponents there are for both sides of the debate. Honestly, I thought I was going to get totally slammed by positive parenters (which I like to consider myself).

Thank you to those who asked for more background in order to suggest helpful strategies. So this behavior all started a few months ago after we unexpectedly had to leave our children for two weeks for medical reasons. They were in very good hands with my parents and they supposedly had a blast (with my 5 year old actually telling me on the phone not to come home because he likes Grandma better than me). As soon as we got home, he begin expressing a lot of anger, specifically toward me ("you're so stupid. You're the worst person in the world, etc.") and every-day interactions that were not issues beforehand suddenly became big power struggles. The physical violence naturally followed.

I should mention that this child is highly intelligent and seems to have a lot of anxieties (but not enough that I would take him for therapy) such as often comes into my bed at night because of nightmares, scared of natural disasters, etc.

All that being said, it seemed pretty obvious he was suffering from some feelings of anxiety/abandonment from when we left and I was hoping things would smooth over as we got back into routine. I have tried various discipline methods such as "1-2-3 magic". Most consistently when he rages, I calmly bring him to his room and hold the door closed while repeating that while I will open it when he is calm. But he just tends to wreck his room and spew 5-year old expletives at me ("I hate you! You're the most disgusting person ever!") - this usually lasts 20-30 minutes until he grudgingly calms down. But this is not always practical (think 5 minutes before carpool pickup) and does not seem to be yielding any improvement in behavior.

He is stubborn as a rock, and attempting to reason with him when he has his mind set is an exercise in futility.

I will give an example of what happened tonight. I put him to bed at the same time as his 7 year old brother. I first snuggled him for 5 minutes and then his brother. As I'm snuggling his brother, he started whining that I'm snuggling brother longer than him. I explained to him that I set a timer for both and brother is getting just as long as he got. He doesn't accept that logic and gets out of bed, crying that brother got longer. I calmly repeat myself and tell him he needs to get back into bed, or brother will need to leave the room and sleep in my bed, and I will have to hold the door closed until he is laying in bed. He starts yelling that he hates me, and starts kicking me. I calmly state that we are not allowed to kick Mommy. I send brother out and hold the door closed. He starts banging on the door with a toy, screaming and crying. Then he tells me that he is unraveling all the floss. I tell him that if destroys things, I will have to take money from his toy bank to pay for it. He starts screaming "no, you can't take my money!" I repeat myself. He starts screaming "shut up! shut up!" (he did NOT learn that word in my house in case you're wondering). I tell him that since he is using bad words, I will have to take away his new toy for a few days. He starts screaming and crying even louder "you can't take away my toy! you can't take away my toy!". This goes on for about 25 minutes. Eventually, he is in bed and I open the door, but he refuses to lay down and keeps crying that brother got longer. I ask him "do you want one more minute of snuggles?" and he whimpers yes. I snuggle him for a minute, he's calm and I leave.

I remained calm the entire time, but every time I tried to establish a boundary (you will have to pay for damage, consequence for using bad word, etc.), it just seemed to escalate the situation. Eventually, the only way I resolved it was by giving in to his original demand, which can't be right, but at that point, he really did need snuggles to calm him down.

Sorry so long, and I would love to hear any suggestions of how to deal with this positively.
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amother
Black


 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:45 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:


I will give an example of what happened tonight. I put him to bed at the same time as his 7 year old brother. I first snuggled him for 5 minutes and then his brother. As I'm snuggling his brother, he started whining that I'm snuggling brother longer than him. I explained to him that I set a timer for both and brother is getting just as long as he got. He doesn't accept that logic and gets out of bed, crying that brother got longer. I calmly repeat myself and tell him he needs to get back into bed, or brother will need to leave the room and sleep in my bed, and I will have to hold the door closed until he is laying in bed. He starts yelling that he hates me, and starts kicking me. I calmly state that we are not allowed to kick Mommy. I send brother out and hold the door closed. He starts banging on the door with a toy, screaming and crying. Then he tells me that he is unraveling all the floss. I tell him that if destroys things, I will have to take money from his toy bank to pay for it. He starts screaming "no, you can't take my money!" I repeat myself. He starts screaming "shut up! shut up!" (he did NOT learn that word in my house in case you're wondering). I tell him that since he is using bad words, I will have to take away his new toy for a few days. He starts screaming and crying even louder "you can't take away my toy! you can't take away my toy!". This goes on for about 25 minutes. Eventually, he is in bed and I open the door, but he refuses to lay down and keeps crying that brother got longer. I ask him "do you want one more minute of snuggles?" and he whimpers yes. I snuggle him for a minute, he's calm and I leave.

I remained calm the entire time, but every time I tried to establish a boundary (you will have to pay for damage, consequence for using bad word, etc.), it just seemed to escalate the situation. Eventually, the only way I resolved it was by giving in to his original demand, which can't be right, but at that point, he really did need snuggles to calm him down.

Sorry so long, and I would love to hear any suggestions of how to deal with this positively.


You’re holding the door closed, literally and figuratively, while he is crying out that he needs you.

Instead of holding the door closed, hold him. And teach him that when he feels like he’s losing control, he can come to you for a hug.

Maybe he gets more snuggles than his brother. Maybe he needs more right now. His brother can have more when he needs it.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:47 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Wow, thank you so much to everyone for your replies, opinions and insights. This really generated quite a discussion. It's so interesting to see how many proponents there are for both sides of the debate. Honestly, I thought I was going to get totally slammed by positive parenters (which I like to consider myself).

Thank you to those who asked for more background in order to suggest helpful strategies. So this behavior all started a few months ago after we unexpectedly had to leave our children for two weeks for medical reasons. They were in very good hands with my parents and they supposedly had a blast (with my 5 year old actually telling me on the phone not to come home because he likes Grandma better than me). As soon as we got home, he begin expressing a lot of anger, specifically toward me ("you're so stupid. You're the worst person in the world, etc.") and every-day interactions that were not issues beforehand suddenly became big power struggles. The physical violence naturally followed.

I should mention that this child is highly intelligent and seems to have a lot of anxieties (but not enough that I would take him for therapy) such as often comes into my bed at night because of nightmares, scared of natural disasters, etc.

All that being said, it seemed pretty obvious he was suffering from some feelings of anxiety/abandonment from when we left and I was hoping things would smooth over as we got back into routine. I have tried various discipline methods such as "1-2-3 magic". Most consistently when he rages, I calmly bring him to his room and hold the door closed while repeating that while I will open it when he is calm. But he just tends to wreck his room and spew 5-year old expletives at me ("I hate you! You're the most disgusting person ever!") - this usually lasts 20-30 minutes until he grudgingly calms down. But this is not always practical (think 5 minutes before carpool pickup) and does not seem to be yielding any improvement in behavior.

He is stubborn as a rock, and attempting to reason with him when he has his mind set is an exercise in futility.

I will give an example of what happened tonight. I put him to bed at the same time as his 7 year old brother. I first snuggled him for 5 minutes and then his brother. As I'm snuggling his brother, he started whining that I'm snuggling brother longer than him. I explained to him that I set a timer for both and brother is getting just as long as he got. He doesn't accept that logic and gets out of bed, crying that brother got longer. I calmly repeat myself and tell him he needs to get back into bed, or brother will need to leave the room and sleep in my bed, and I will have to hold the door closed until he is laying in bed. He starts yelling that he hates me, and starts kicking me. I calmly state that we are not allowed to kick Mommy. I send brother out and hold the door closed. He starts banging on the door with a toy, screaming and crying. Then he tells me that he is unraveling all the floss. I tell him that if destroys things, I will have to take money from his toy bank to pay for it. He starts screaming "no, you can't take my money!" I repeat myself. He starts screaming "shut up! shut up!" (he did NOT learn that word in my house in case you're wondering). I tell him that since he is using bad words, I will have to take away his new toy for a few days. He starts screaming and crying even louder "you can't take away my toy! you can't take away my toy!". This goes on for about 25 minutes. Eventually, he is in bed and I open the door, but he refuses to lay down and keeps crying that brother got longer. I ask him "do you want one more minute of snuggles?" and he whimpers yes. I snuggle him for a minute, he's calm and I leave.

I remained calm the entire time, but every time I tried to establish a boundary (you will have to pay for damage, consequence for using bad word, etc.), it just seemed to escalate the situation. Eventually, the only way I resolved it was by giving in to his original demand, which can't be right, but at that point, he really did need snuggles to calm him down.

Sorry so long, and I would love to hear any suggestions of how to deal with this positively.


I think his anxiety is causing him to act out and your threats and punishments are the worst thing he needs at this specific moment. I would have tried saying, do you want me to stay with you again when you saw him get upset, you need to address the underlying feelings of anxiety. your punishments and threats are only escalating his anxiety and causing hin to act out. I happen to think there is nothing wrong with your husband potching him (shouldnt have been in anger) but yes he should have a fear of authority and learn there are consequences to totally insppropriate behavior. a potch ifrom a father is not abuse, please.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:48 pm
Yikes OP this sounds challenging. From reading your description of bedtime, it sounds like this was a major power struggle that got out of hand. You threaten a consequence, so he tests to see if you'll follow through with it, so you feel forced to keep your threat, and it's a battle of wills.

Can you try to take an approach of avoiding power struggles wherever possible? (I also wouldn't involve the brother, not fair to make him get out of bed.) Iow, keep it neutral and try to create a situation where you aren't making threats or issuing orders that he'll want to test.

As for the claim that you snuggled longer with his brother, I highly recommend Siblings Without Rivalry. It's by the same authors as How to Talk so Kids will listen, and they address this issue of kids complaining that a sibling got more of something and it's not fair. And don't set a timer for snuggling, bec then you're just feeding into it the complaint of fairness.

As for his anxieties, 1 thing that might be helpful is giving him lots of opportunities to express his feelings and for you to validate him when he does, and also to model this yourself by expressing feelings even if negative.

As for putting him in his room and holding the door closed while he wrecks the room, I'm not sure this is a great idea. If he's physically out of control, can you try restraining him in a firm hug, would that help him calm down? If he does have fears of abandonment, then keeping the door closed while he's in the room might be very disturbing. And if it takes 30 minutes and he's destroying the room, it doesn't sound like it's helping him get calm.
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mommy201




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:48 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
Wow, thank you so much to everyone for your replies, opinions and insights. This really generated quite a discussion. It's so interesting to see how many proponents there are for both sides of the debate. Honestly, I thought I was going to get totally slammed by positive parenters (which I like to consider myself).

Thank you to those who asked for more background in order to suggest helpful strategies. So this behavior all started a few months ago after we unexpectedly had to leave our children for two weeks for medical reasons. They were in very good hands with my parents and they supposedly had a blast (with my 5 year old actually telling me on the phone not to come home because he likes Grandma better than me). As soon as we got home, he begin expressing a lot of anger, specifically toward me ("you're so stupid. You're the worst person in the world, etc.") and every-day interactions that were not issues beforehand suddenly became big power struggles. The physical violence naturally followed.

I should mention that this child is highly intelligent and seems to have a lot of anxieties (but not enough that I would take him for therapy) such as often comes into my bed at night because of nightmares, scared of natural disasters, etc.

All that being said, it seemed pretty obvious he was suffering from some feelings of anxiety/abandonment from when we left and I was hoping things would smooth over as we got back into routine. I have tried various discipline methods such as "1-2-3 magic". Most consistently when he rages, I calmly bring him to his room and hold the door closed while repeating that while I will open it when he is calm. But he just tends to wreck his room and spew 5-year old expletives at me ("I hate you! You're the most disgusting person ever!") - this usually lasts 20-30 minutes until he grudgingly calms down. But this is not always practical (think 5 minutes before carpool pickup) and does not seem to be yielding any improvement in behavior.

He is stubborn as a rock, and attempting to reason with him when he has his mind set is an exercise in futility.

I will give an example of what happened tonight. I put him to bed at the same time as his 7 year old brother. I first snuggled him for 5 minutes and then his brother. As I'm snuggling his brother, he started whining that I'm snuggling brother longer than him. I explained to him that I set a timer for both and brother is getting just as long as he got. He doesn't accept that logic and gets out of bed, crying that brother got longer. I calmly repeat myself and tell him he needs to get back into bed, or brother will need to leave the room and sleep in my bed, and I will have to hold the door closed until he is laying in bed. He starts yelling that he hates me, and starts kicking me. I calmly state that we are not allowed to kick Mommy. I send brother out and hold the door closed. He starts banging on the door with a toy, screaming and crying. Then he tells me that he is unraveling all the floss. I tell him that if destroys things, I will have to take money from his toy bank to pay for it. He starts screaming "no, you can't take my money!" I repeat myself. He starts screaming "shut up! shut up!" (he did NOT learn that word in my house in case you're wondering). I tell him that since he is using bad words, I will have to take away his new toy for a few days. He starts screaming and crying even louder "you can't take away my toy! you can't take away my toy!". This goes on for about 25 minutes. Eventually, he is in bed and I open the door, but he refuses to lay down and keeps crying that brother got longer. I ask him "do you want one more minute of snuggles?" and he whimpers yes. I snuggle him for a minute, he's calm and I leave.

I remained calm the entire time, but every time I tried to establish a boundary (you will have to pay for damage, consequence for using bad word, etc.), it just seemed to escalate the situation. Eventually, the only way I resolved it was by giving in to his original demand, which can't be right, but at that point, he really did need snuggles to calm him down.

Sorry so long, and I would love to hear any suggestions of how to deal with this positively.


Wow OP! Firstly, you sound like an amazing mother. And any mother that even tries which ever way they believe in to improve their parenting is really taking steps in the right direction. (Rather then sometimes the easier way out - would be to yell, punish...)

It sounds like your son is going through a painful time which is resulting in his behavior, which is so normal under the circumstances. I would tend to think that it’s actually the more intelligent children that sometimes get effected more deeply by these kinds of situations.

I do think there are other ways to work with him since as you mentioned the ones you have been doing have not been very effective.

When he rages or is upset, it is so amazing that you stay calm but what he is probably craving is that connection to you, especially after being separated from you. So I would suggest instead of putting him in the room no matter how calmly, either go with him into his room or make more of like a “time in” area where you can be with him, hold him, sit with him and do something together to help him calm down- books, crafts, hugging. This will help him feel safe and not any feeling of abandonment that probably gets worse when he’s in his room alone which is why he reacts so intensely. This has worked for me and so many others and when you think about it makes so much sense.

If he had already misbehaved, when he’s calm or at a later time in the day, discuss it with him in a non judgmental way. For example “you were feeling so angry or upset before? Tell me why you were feeling that way. Let him name his feelings and expressions. You can then gently explain that while feeling emotions is always okay and even encouraged, we can’t act out on them. You can role play or let him come up with ways to help himself if a similar situation arises in the future. Perhaps you should also discuss how it felt to him when you were away and how you missed him so much and it hopefully won’t be happening again but sometimes situations arise and that your always there for him to talk to.

Regarding his comment and behavior on his brother getting more time in bed with him. Perhaps instead of telling to just go to bed. First validate his feelings and empathize and then set the boundary. You can tell him “ I know sheifela it seems that you got more time and it can be so annoying, we still need to go to sleep now - mommy can give you one more kiss” just keep empathizing even if he resists. Now he still may tantrum the first or second time you do this since it’s not a quick fix. But eventually all this behavior should stop and get back to normal kid misbehavior :-) this really really works and while it’s definitely hard work on the parents end, the reward for both you and child is so great that it’s all worth it! And you definitely sound like someone who can do this!
Again I would really recommend taking blimie hellers course - since this so much of what she says but there is so much more understanding and shifting of perspective when you take the course. It’s simply life changing.
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Laiya




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 8:51 pm
As for his rages, have you had conversations when he is calm, about what he's feeling and what drives his anger? You can try to brainstorm together with him, which methods he would like to use to calm himself. There are some videos on youtube aimed for kids that teach deep breathing techniques. You want to convey that you will accept his feelings if he can express them in words, and encourage that.
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amother
Plum


 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 9:00 pm
amother [ OP ] wrote:
My 5 year old is going through a stage (for about 2 months already) where he gets violent when he is upset, including hitting, scratching, throwing things etc. I have suffered some real scratches from him. None of the disciplinary methods I've been using seem to help, and today my husband got so fed up when my son threw something at him that he angrily potched him (on his arm), yelled at him that he is not allowed to hurt people, and put him in his room. This was gut-wrenching for me to watch as I strongly believe potching is harmful, but my husband insists that this is the only way because nothing I'm doing is helping, and this kid needs to know he cannot cross a red line of hurting his parents.

What do you all think? I'm feeling so torn.


why do you have such an extreme reaction to potching? even if it wasnt a great reaction "gut wrenching to watch" sounds like you may have some lingering trauma from your own childhood.
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ora_43




 
 
    
 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 11:04 pm
OK so what I would do differently - just me personally, and keep in mind that my kids are hardly perfect angels...

1. When Kid is out of bed whining, would first try standing and gently leading him back to bed, and giving him some sympathy. Name his emotion. "I see you're upset. You wanted more cuddles." Offer him something small so that he can feel like he's been heard. "How about after Brother's turn, I'll come give you another hug and kiss?"

2. If that doesn't work, and time-out has to happen, I would NOT engage with anything after the door is closed. He wants to unravel his floss? I'm not telling him the consequences, he knows the consequences. He's saying it's not fair, I can't take his money? OK, let him say that. He says "shut up"? IGNORE.

It sounds like it turned into a battle of wills, with him throwing new things into the mix to keep getting a reaction out of you. Don't react.

*

BTW I think what you did at the end (giving him a short cuddle to help him calm down) was good. I do think you need to be careful not to give him the exact thing he was tantruming about, but in general, kids like this need a little help getting from "worn-out post-tantrum" all the way to "calm." That moment where they've stopped screaming but are still whining is a great time to come in and show some sympathy and affection.


Last edited by ora_43 on Thu, Sep 12 2019, 3:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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amother
Apricot


 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 11:32 pm
I have learnt that time out has a terrible effect on my kid. It's mommy cant deal with me/ listen to my tantrums/ I can't be sad so she's locking me away. Instead I lie with dc in the room atleast for a minute. This ends any 'ordeals' alot faster. I wonder if this is whats going on with you.
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amother
Goldenrod


 

Post Wed, Sep 11 2019, 11:42 pm
Relax, I think you are doing great, I had kids like that I and I resorted to potching a lot earlier than 2 mos.! But my pothching didn't help in the least, it just made them be more violent.
What did help though was time-outs.
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WhatFor




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 12 2019, 12:23 am
OP, I don't agree with hitting children, and even those who do, don't agree with hitting children out of anger, so your DH should not have done that. I think you got a lot of great advice in the last few posts.

You spoke about you leaving your child for two weeks for medical reasons and his anger starting there. Have you ever spoken to him about that?

Is it possible that your parents may have inadvertently said something to make him feel better like, "such a big boy! You're so good and you haven't seen your mommy for two weeks!" And he took that to mean that needing you is sign of weakness? Or maybe nobody said anything, but this is his defense mechanism to tell himself he didn't need you all that time? Or maybe he was actually scared and concerned about losing you or DH because of the medical component?

If he feels, for whatever reason, like he's not allowed to "need" you at an age where he really does, it can make him very angry and defensive.

I do think it's interesting that the example you gave about when he started acting up is directly related to a fear of losing you/missing affection.

Maybe have a chat with him about you leaving and how he felt during that time. If he says something like, "I didn't care! I loved it!" You can say, "I'm happy you had a good time, and it's also okay to miss your mommy if you did." Maybe tell him how sad you were that you couldn't be with him and you missed him a lot. (His response while you were gone almost sounds like he's defensive and thought you happily abandoned him for a good time.) Maybe talk about how you and DH will always be there for him and make sure he's taken care of. Maybe schedule some "dates" or special time with him.

Just throwing that out there based on your belief that this all started with the trip away.
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amother
Forestgreen


 

Post Thu, Sep 12 2019, 2:12 am
Laiya wrote:
Yikes OP this sounds challenging. From reading your description of bedtime, it sounds like this was a major power struggle that got out of hand. You threaten a consequence, so he tests to see if you'll follow through with it, so you feel forced to keep your threat, and it's a battle of wills.

Can you try to take an approach of avoiding power struggles wherever possible? (I also wouldn't involve the brother, not fair to make him get out of bed.) Iow, keep it neutral and try to create a situation where you aren't making threats or issuing orders that he'll want to test.

As for the claim that you snuggled longer with his brother, I highly recommend Siblings Without Rivalry. It's by the same authors as How to Talk so Kids will listen, and they address this issue of kids complaining that a sibling got more of something and it's not fair. And don't set a timer for snuggling, bec then you're just feeding into it the complaint of fairness.

As for his anxieties, 1 thing that might be helpful is giving him lots of opportunities to express his feelings and for you to validate him when he does, and also to model this yourself by expressing feelings even if negative.

As for putting him in his room and holding the door closed while he wrecks the room, I'm not sure this is a great idea. If he's physically out of control, can you try restraining him in a firm hug, would that help him calm down? If he does have fears of abandonment, then keeping the door closed while he's in the room might be very disturbing. And if it takes 30 minutes and he's destroying the room, it doesn't sound like it's helping him get calm.



This. Read those books it sound like it could be helpful.

Also, I think locking a kid in a room js worse than 1 potch. And just because you remained calm doesn't mean you parented appropriately or correctly. Youre acting extremely punitively in response to his request for cuddles?
Say, "oh, you wished I cuddled with you more? Now im cuddling with big brother. When im done cuddling with him, I can cuddle with you"
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FranticFrummie




 
 
    
 

Post Thu, Sep 12 2019, 4:53 am
Oh my gosh. It sounds like all of you were watching the boy I babysat last night. Both of his parents work late, and I was in charge of bed time. The boy is 5, his sister is 8. The boy has HFA.

The boy is tall for his age, and very heavy. He's also very violent. He hit me the second he got home from school. When he tried it again I was able to block it, but then he tried to kick me. I just told him that it was not OK, and walked away from him. I figured he was overwhelmed from school, and needed time out to settle down. I got him cold water and pretzels.

Bedtime was a nightmare. His sister gets to stay up an hour later than him. I told them both that if they helped me clean up their room, for every minute they helped, they could stay up a minute extra. 5 minutes of putting dirty clothes in the hamper got you 5 extra minutes past bedtime. The girl put in a good 30 minutes of focused cleaning and organization. The boy picked up his kippot, and then said he was bored. I repeated the rules, so that everyone was clear.

At bedtime, guess who had a major meltdown? Yep. The boy just flopped down on the floor and cried, this sort of whiny, sniffling cry without a lot of tears, that says "I'm not getting my way." I told him it was bed time, and I would read him a story, and stay with him until he fell asleep. Nothing doing. Then I said "OK, if you need me I'll be on the couch." and got my book. 2 and a half hours later, and he's still at it!

It was his sister who finally got him to bed. I was exhausted from dealing with him (I'm leaving a whole lot of identifying details out, so you'll have to fill in the blanks.)

His sister asked me why I didn't just let him play for 5 more minutes, and I told her "If he has a tantrum, and I finally give him what he wants, what does he learn?" Suddenly, the light bulb went on, and she understood. At that point I figured out that whenever the boy has a tantrum, the parents give in. Therefore I was evil and mean. I told the girl I don't want to be mean to her brother, I am helping him learn how to have a happy life and get what he wants. I always reward good behavior, and I ignore bad (unless someone is at risk of harm.)

So, long story short, if you have a violent child that doesn't transition well, have you had them evaluated for Autism? If it turns out your child has it, you can learn better tools to deal with it, and at least know that your child is struggling more than an NT child would.

Knowing the boy was on the spectrum gave me a lot more patience than I would have had otherwise. If I didn't know, I'd think that he was just being a spoiled brat who got away with murder.
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