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Define "hitting"
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Do you hit your kids as a deciplinary measure?
NEVER!!  
 38%  [ 21 ]
If they are really bad...  
 20%  [ 11 ]
On occasion  
 32%  [ 18 ]
I don't have a specific shitah  
 9%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 55



shira




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 12:02 pm
I grew up in a home where my parents hit us when we were disrespectful. My father was a naval officer and it was all about rank and file. NO disrespect was tolerated.
Once, my father found out that I'd been disrespectful to my 5th grade Navi teacher. At that same time, my father was helping me prepare for the upcoming spelling bee. He gave me a choice- 1. I could choose that he wouldn't talk to me until after the spelling bee or 2.I could choose the belt- 3 times- across my behind.(don't worry, pre batmitzva, fully clothed, mom was there,yaada yadda yadda) I CHOSE THE BELT! I don't remember wether or not it hurt but I do remember hearing my father crying downstairs afterwards.

Anyway, despite what I grew up with, being the progressive mommy that I am, I am NOT into hitting my kids at all. My mother is appalled and thinks that my kids are totally out of control. I explained that when building neshamos and iy"h productive yirai shamayim, sometimes you have to pick your battles and ignore the things that they'll grow out of. I mean, do you think they'll still be eating carrot kugel with their hands when they are standing under the chuppa?

And now I come to the point of this very long winded post.......
Tonight my 2 boys were in the bathtub and as I was bathing the little one, my 3 year old was shpritzing the water EVERYWHERE. I said, "Please stop". He completely ignored me. I asked again. No response. Finally I held his arm (firmly) and said VERY clearly (not yelling but very firm) "YZ, IF MOMMY SAYS SOMETHING WE LISTEN. MOMMY SAID TO STOP SHPRITZING THE WATER- THAT MEANS STOP"

He spat in my face. shock

I was so taken aback the ONLY thing I could think of doing at that point was giving his lips a little zetz. I think I can objectively say that it was no harder than a tap but a zetz it was.

Is this considered "hitting"?
As a mom who "doesn't hit", am I giving him the wrong message (though I of course never discussed with him my shitah!) by doing something like that?
I did act out of surprise but thinking back, I don't know what would have made my message more clear.
Goodness being a mom is hard! I wish I had more tools so that I'd know what to do in these situations- even when I am taking by surprise!

All perspectives are welcome Confused
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de_goldy




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 12:28 pm
I dont believe in hitting children. however, 'not hitting' does NOT equal 'not disciplining'. It's great not to hit, but it needs to be replaced with another form of discipline. To have a kid spit at you in the face, is NOT ok. BUT that does'nt mean you need to start hitting, just means that instead of being 'discipline free' you need to cultivate a different method which works for you.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 1:04 pm
This isn't really in answer to the above post, but about hitting kids. Rav Wolbe, ztl said that nowadays one can not hit a kid past the age of 3, since after the age of 3 a kid will hit back and it is considered lifnei iver.
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queenie




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 1:44 pm
Let's face it, what mother actually does believe in hitting? It's obviously not our first choice to "hurt" our children. Sometimes it does work with a child to get a point across.

One should never be angry when you give a potch, a hit or a zetz whatever bc then you can get out of control. There are times when a small zetz does work to refocus a child. If I hit my child on the hand then all of a sudden he's paying attention to me and then I can reason with him. When you have two kids in the bath you can't exactly take one out and leave one in the bath and give the rude child a punishment or a talking too.

What I try to do, and nope it doesn't always work but it helps, is before we go somewhere we review the rules, rewards and punishments for behavior. On the way to shul we talk about how to act in shul etc. What will happen at home if they don't behave and how happy mommy will be if they do behave. I remind them of the shabbos party if they behave at shul. Same before taking a bath, "this is how we act in the bath and this is what will happen after the bath if you don't behave."

Often the reminder right before the activity helps. But, sometimes it doesn't.
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shira




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 1:55 pm
de_goldy, how about some tips?
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 2:12 pm
Hitting rarely helps and I'm talking from raising ka"h a crew from teenagers to little ones. Not that I'm an expert by any means but experiance wisdom that comes w/h age helps us define whats an issue and whats not. U see when I was younger I felt that my kids hchutzpah had to be dealt w/h asap b/c who knows how they would grow up.
So I used to give time out in their rooms much more then I would do now w/h my other younger ones.
But spitting in u'r face is a NO No so yup in this circumstance I would put a bit of salt or pepper in his mouth NOT A LOT and say u never ever spit at anyone especiallly u'r mummy or Tatty ever.
Then give him water to wash it out.
I can almost promise u he wont do that again. Buit if u resort to hitting 1) it can b/come a habit and 2) Teaches him to hit troo. This is not abuse but called tough love!
Remember too not to overuse any punishment b/c then it will b/come ineffective, and lets face it there r some things not worth arguing or making a fuss about. In other words choose u'r battles. Hatzlacha
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 4:19 pm
Quote:
Remember too not to overuse any punishment b/c then it will b/come ineffective,


This is very good advice. In fact, it is just what I was going to say. Very Happy
I have four kids and I do give them an occasional patch. But only occasional, when the behavior is very drastic and warrants an immediate and severe response.

Honestly, in your situation, Shira, I probably would have done just the same thing. The truth is that for people ( most of us, probably) who grew up with parents that patched, it is much harder to avoid hitting our own kids just because that is our automatic go-to mode when we are frustrated. The only thing that I can add is that if you have a nice repetoire of other punishments at hand, you will be less tempted to patch. So, collect a range of options for next time:

putting pepper ( or soap) on the tongue,
take him out of the bathtub and stand and be cold while you finish washing the other one
have him smack his own mouth ( I do this with my son and it works great)

Good luck. By the way, I think your story about your father is nice.
Also, I wrote as amother b/c of identifying information.
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Rivka




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 4:39 pm
amother I like that bit of asking him to smack his own mouth.
I quit smacking my toddler when he was one because all that ended up happening was he would learn to smack and started to smack anyone and everyone. So I figured it's stupid if I don't want him to smack to tell him off and then smack him. So I made a naughty room (my bedroom) and if he was very naughty ie smacking or spitting then I would tell him if he doesn't stop he goes into the naughty room. At the begining he didn't get it, so he went into the naughty room for a few minutes and he cried and cried. When I let him out he had to go apologise to whoever he hurt. This meant going over to them and giving a hug and kiss.
It took a few times before he really stopped smacking and now he doesn't do it at all b"h. But once we were waiting for the Dr and he got impatient and I didn't feel too grand either and he got annoyed and smacked me, so I told him off and said to him that it wasn't me who was ill and if he wants to smack anyone it should be himself as we are seeing the Dr for him. So he started to smack himself...which I thought was highly amusing.
Spitting is a definate no no, so if the smack doesn't work I would just grab him by the arm and take him out of the bath and wait in the corner of the bathroom until the other sibling has finished his bath.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 4:52 pm
A good policy of punishments is restitution not retribution. The punishment should fit the crime so that the kid realises it is for his good - that he shouldn't do it again and not just a punishment to get at him.
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shira




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 4:59 pm
1st timer, give me an idea for this particular situation. What kind of punishment fits the crime for spitting in mommy's face? I think part of my problem with these things is that I lack the creativity to come up with appropriate punishments/consequences ESPECIALLY on the spot. To be successful, I probably have to envision EVERY possible situation and create appropriate consequence beforehand.
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1stimer




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 5:25 pm
I know it is easier in theory then in practice, but I heard of a great idea for school age kids, not sure if it would work with such a young kid. But something like this:

'(big gasp) You spat in Mommy's face! That is so disrespectful to a Mommy, because you did that I want you to go and read xxx (you choose an age appropriate book that teaches the midda/mitzva you are trying to teach)'

As I said I dont' know if it would work with such a young kid, so please don't attack me. But IMO a big issue is the kind of reaction you show the kid. If the kid sees that you are in control (I.e. not angry) but you COMPLETLY DISAPROVE of the ACTION (not him) then it makes an impression. Kids naturally want to please mommy and daddy and make them happy.
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Purple Hug Bunny




 
 
    
 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 10:08 pm
Shira, you've gotten some great advice
Can I just add my 2 cents?

I can understand that on the spot it's very hard not to give a patch, it's almost instinctive and not all punishments are possible right on the spot, like putting pepper in his mouth.

Whoever said that one shouldn't give a patch when angry,, this kinda actually makes me laugh, when I'm not upset anymore the patch wont come, I prob. wouldn't give it, I don't think anyone can give petch when not angry.
My father did reach that level, he explains to a kid, you did this and this now come here and I'll give you a patch.

I know that it was very hard not to give a patch on the spot but IMO you made it worse, bec. that is what he wanted, he wanted your attn. and by 3 a kid is clever enough to know that if I do this and this, surely my mom wont ignore me.. he wanted the attn and you gave it to him. he won...

I work with 2 kids with down syndrome, and they are clever enough to know what will get my attn. when they misbehave and I simply ignore them they do s/thing that they know I can't ignore, like blowing their nose on thier hands or trying to do s/hting dangerous, like climbing over a gate.. kids know how to get their way.

I like the idea of taking him out of the bathtub, it's s/thing you can do on the spot, and I'm sure it will do it's purpose.

I always say that I won't hit my kids, I'll have special ways of dealing with them, e/one tells me, just wait till you have them...
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amother


 

Post Sun, Aug 28 2005, 10:31 pm
I also dont believe in hitting, even though thats how I was raised... however its a constant struggle of self control. now what would u do if... ur son pulled off your head covering in font of a male family member?????? I can tell u 1 thing that my child got a patch, although I didnt think it was the best thing to do, at that point I couldnt think of a/t more appropriate!
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shira




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2005, 3:21 am
Well, thank you guys for the peppr idea. It was a practical solution as he spat at me again- this time in the kitchen. He was NOT happy but then I handed him a cup of water and said, "It tasted ichy, right? children who do ichy things with their mouths get ichy tasting things in their mouths." He got the message. When his abba walked in the house he said,
"Abba, Mommy put peppa in my mouth"
"How come, YZ?"
"Because I spit at her"
"Are we allowed to spit at Mommies, YZ?" "
"We aren't allowed to spit at nobody."
Thumbs Up
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2005, 4:55 am
Quote:
freilich wrote:
But spitting in u'r face is a NO No so yup in this circumstance I would put a bit of salt or pepper in his mouth NOT A LOT and say u never ever spit at anyone especiallly u'r mummy or Tatty ever.
Then give him water to wash it out.
I can almost promise u he wont do that again. Buit if u resort to hitting 1) it can b/come a habit and 2) Teaches him to hit troo. This is not abuse but called tough love!


ok, not judging, but asking - I never ever heard of this kind of punishment until my friend in canada told me about it..
never heard of anything like this in israel, or here, where I live now, so is this typical canadian?
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2005, 9:54 am
Pearl hate 2 break it to u but I got this idea from an Israeli u know them and their spices she told me it's quite a common thing to do in Israel, Scratching Head maybe u'r from a diff part Twisted Evil
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de_goldy




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2005, 9:57 am
I've also never, ever heared of this. I have heared of some (disturbed) parents washing their kids mouthes out with soap, but not frum ones.
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Tefila




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2005, 10:05 am
Hm now I'm begining 2 wonder. Well a) I'm not disturbed yet Twisted Evil and b) It works Exclamation and I still have my kids b"h Twisted Evil
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Pearl




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2005, 10:13 am
freilich, thanks for the reply.
I know all about the spices, but still, would never put them in the mouth of child in order to make a point, but that's just my own opinion...
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ElTam




 
 
    
 

Post Mon, Aug 29 2005, 11:44 am
My daughter has never spit at me, but she did go through a period of biting. I would firmly say, "No bite." and then put her down and walk away. It took a little bit, but it seems to be working. If she does stuff in the tub that she's not allowed to do (mostly standing up), I give her one warning and then I take her out.

I've been reading "Effective Jewish Parenting" by Miriam Levy and find it has a lot of good discipline suggestions.
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