DH is a bad role model

amother

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 9:33 am

Lots of complicated background, but bottom line DH has challenges with mental health & his yiddishkeit that have been ongoing for years. I know that parents are supposed to be a united front, and it's detrimental to children if I undermine him in front of them, but what am I to do when he is blatantly modeling horrible behavior/hashkafos?

For example, we are planning for DD's bas mitzvah and DH was in the room and happened to be in a rotten mood. We were making up an invitation list and I said "how about Sara L?" who is a few years older than DD but they used to play together all the time and she spent a lot of time at our house. "She didn't invite me to her bas mitzvah and I was really insulted," DD replied. DH interjects "She didn't invite you to her bas mitzvah??!?!? What a moron!! I forbid you from inviting her to your bas mitzvah. If she's there, I won't come."

I couldn't help myself from saying "Please don't call anyone a moron. And I'm sure she had good reasons for not inviting her. (She's much younger, budget, etc.) Besides, it's an aveira to hold a grudge and take nekama. That's not how we do things. What kind of chinuch is this?"

At the same time I'm feeling guilty because I'm undermining him in front of DD. But how can I allow him to role-model and instill such bad hashkafos in my children? This is just one example of such situations that happen often.

And if you're going to tell me DH and I need to have an honest, real conversation about this (we've had many) or he needs to go to therapy (he's refused for yours and that's not going to change), that's not going to work. This is the reality, I need to know how to deal with these situations when they happen.

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 9:38 am

I think you responded perfectly.
A united front only works when the parents are somewhat united.
When you have a dh who can call another little girl a 'moron', you need to show your perspective immediately. You cannot have your children thinking this is ok.

I am sorry, but that's the way it is in these situations. Your life becomes a running commentary on everything the dh says/does, until the kids are old enough to realize that his approach is warped. Even then, sometimes you still need to emphasize the right attitude.

amother

White

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 9:57 am

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

I feel very bad for OP. Hashem should send you the kochos to deal with all these challenges. Not easy.

But, U seriously think that if she won't say anything, then this twelve year old girl will think it is perfectly acceptable to call someone a moron?

And, if she doesn't correct her husband's every imperfection, her children will definitely think he is a good role model??

Where in the Torah does it say that a wife is responsible for 'being a running commentary on everything her husband says/does'?

Sounds waaayyy to extreme

Children go to school, are around others, and very quickly pick up on socially acceptable norms.

And for the record, every single human being deserves to be respected. Disrespecting your husband in front of your children teaches them....what????

amother

Amethyst

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 10:13 am

amother [ White ] wrote:

I feel very bad for OP. Hashem should send you the kochos to deal with all these challenges. Not easy.

But, U seriously think that if she won't say anything, then this twelve year old girl will think it is perfectly acceptable to call someone a moron?

And, if she doesn't correct her husband's every imperfection, her children will definitely think he is a good role model??

Sounds waaayyy to extreme

Children go to school, are around others, and very quickly pick up on socially acceptable norms.

And for the record, every single human being deserves to be respected. Disrespecting your husband in front of your children teaches them....what????

Look, I don't think he needs to be reprimanded every time he says something wrong. That just overloads the house with negativity. You need to balance maintaining peace and respect with modelling a good hashkafa.

But I don't believe in 'respect' at all costs. What if he says something racist? Or chauvinist? Being quiet is not always the right response.

Yes, kids get norms from school and general culture too. But I would never depend on school friends to teach my child morals. Who said their morals are always my morals? I am sure there are kids at school who call others morons. I don't want my kid to be one of them.

amother

Cobalt

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 1:08 pm

You have to be careful in the long run. As someone who has been living with an NPD husband for over 35 years, I know how this goes. Everyone is an idiot and a moron except for the moron yelling like an idiot.

With your DH it is possible that if you correct him too often eventually he will turn on you. I am careful which battles to pick, but in private I make sure to impart to my children (and possibly go overboard in emphasizing) the importance of giving people the benefit of the doubt and looking for the good in people, and that when you insult someone you are insulting Hashem etc. It's not my nature necessarily to be that way but I found that it was the best way to counter act the messages that they were getting from their Father with out contradicting or disrespecting him. Correcting or expressing a different opinion only makes him more vociferous and more demeaning. I also try and change the topic when I see the conversation headed in an unpleasant or unproductive direction.

imasinger

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 2:01 pm

There's a difference between stating a difference of opinion, and undermining someone.

To overstate it for dramatic effect:

It's the difference between saying, "I cannot BELIEVE you just told DD that it was okay to take revenge without even knowing all of why she wasn't invited. What kind of chinuch is this?"

And saying, "I can really feel for anyone who's hurting at not having been invited. It feels awful, and can make anyone both sad and angry. I remember feeling that way in my life a few times, and wanting to lash out. But the someone reminded me/I remembered that it was important to be dl"z, and not to hold a grudge. So I went back and looked again at kedoshim and the rashis. I'd like to look at them together with the two of you, if you're willing." (Not that they'll necessarily agree, just that it states the point in a respectful way, which acknowledges the feelings behind the overly strong statement).

I don't think it's necessarily healthy for parents to always agree on everything in front of kids.

amother

Cobalt

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 2:06 pm

imasinger wrote:

This is true when dealing with an emotionally stable spouse. It is different when you are not.

#BestBubby

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 2:44 pm

imasinger wrote:

Excellent advice. You are conveying "dan l'kaf zechus" without directly criticizing your husband.

trixx

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 2:52 pm

#BestBubby wrote:

OP, even if your DH is modeling bad behavior, it is usually not worth it to criticize DH in front of kids.

If you subtley disagree, to convey a different message to kids, that's OK - but do not undermine your DH.

In private you can ask DH not to do X.

The biggest gift parents can give children is a stable marriage. Be very careful
not to do anything to destroy sholom bayis.

This is only true with a healthy spouse. Bad advice for op.
What if you used more humor instead of self righteousness. Telling dd directly "you know, it's a shame she couldn't come, that doesn't make her a moron and we won't hold it against her." no nekama, aveira, chinuch etc

imasinger

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 4:36 pm

amother [ Cobalt ] wrote:

This is true when dealing with an emotionally stable spouse. It is different when you are not.

May I (gently, respectfully) differ in part?

Each emotionally unstable spouse is different. For you, perhaps the approach wouldn't work, but for some, it does.

I believe it is important for one's own sense of self and values to stand up in front of kids (gently) on the issues that matter deeply to you, for chinuch's sake, even if it leads to defensiveness in the short term.

I also have seen research that those with psychiatric issues kol vachomer need the emotional validation, and when they get it, can better tolerate boundaries.

Trixx's idea of using humor is even better, though.

amother

Cobalt

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 5:35 pm

imasinger wrote:

While I wholeheartedly agree with you that each emotionally unstable spouse is not the same, if you step back and look at it, why is an adult lashing against a child and calling her names? In most cases it is to make themselves feel better. Putting someone else down elevates them. When you are dealing with that dynamic, often anything you say to them is going to make them feel small and that is a trigger for them and they usually end up lashing out and exacerbating the situation. I also agree that it is important to stand up for values etc. However from experience I can tell you that you have to chose your battles and most of the time it is best to have those battles away from the children. I have found the best way to deal with situations similar to OP's is to either deflect, I.e. "Oh she's not such a moron, she does so well in school", and then change the topic. Or to use humor and move on. Thats just my two cents after 35 years of experience.

Cheiny

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 5:37 pm

amother [ OP ] wrote:

If he’s not willing to seek marriage counseling together with you, the best thing to do is not criticize him in front of the kids, but take them aside privately (when he’s not around) and explain why he was wrong in his views and his words, and teach them what the right thing is. You will have to explain at some point when they’re old enough to understand (and can recognize it for themselves) that their father has certain issues which cloud his judgment at times. It’s up to you to teach them right from wrong.

oneofakind

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 6:09 pm

Tempting it may be and it would be my knee-jerk reaction when hearing something like this to say what you did but in the long run you are better off ignoring (I mean come on, your daughter really thought that he would not show up if that girl was there?) or mildly responding, "Yes, it's very hurtful that she didn't invite you but that doesn't make her a moron. Let's figure out together if it makes sense to invite her."

causemommysaid

Fri, Sep 13 2019, 6:53 pm

I think you can disagree with him without being patronizing. Your response will only escalate the fight.

"Please don't call anyone a moron. And I'm sure she had good reasons for not inviting her. (She's much younger, budget, etc.) Besides, it's an aveira to hold a grudge and take nekama. That's not how we do things. What kind of chinuch is this?"

How about something like this?

"Wow, moron is a strong word for a little girl. Maybe she couldnt invite her for a, b, c reason? I hope you will reconsider and let her come. Maybe we can be the bigger ones here and invite her even if we are hurt? "

amother

Amethyst

Sat, Sep 14 2019, 1:13 pm

Cheiny wrote:

I think going behind his back and telling the kids their dad has a problem is much more problematic than disagreeing in real time.

I would only tell the kids their dad has issues in extreme cases, where the dad is certifiably off.

In cases where the dad can be a jerk, or voices opinions that I strongly oppose (racist, anti-frum etc), I would openly say something. I dont believe in presenting a united front when your values are being trodden upon. It leads to resentment and repressed anger, which is terrible for a marriage. It also leads to the kids absorbing warped values.

I dont agree with the approach that parents always need to agree in front of the kids.

#BestBubby

Sat, Sep 14 2019, 9:14 pm

Cheiny wrote:

Teaching kids to disrespect their father is wrong. It is parental alienation. And when DH finds out (which he will), DH will retaliate by pointing out to the kids all their
mom's faults.

Don't go there.

Just model proper behavior. Your children are also getting taught proper behavior in school and they will figure out which parent is a proper role model on their own.

amother

Cobalt

Sat, Sep 14 2019, 9:25 pm

amother [ Amethyst ] wrote:

All of what you say holds true when you are dealing with an emotionally stable person, but OP says that her DH is not, and that changes the equation. I do agree that you don't tell the kids privately what Dad says is off that can only lead to trouble. However, correcting him or explaining why his view is racists, anti whatever, or just not appropriate in front of the kids will often lead to trouble as well. Sometimes it is better to brush it off and move on, and then later try and impart the proper messages to the children privately without knocking the other parent. You don't have to say remember when Dad called your friend a moron. Rather just bring up name calling etc in general. And it doesn't have to be in regard to an incident, it can be an on going campaign to instill the right values in your kids, not just in conjunction with an unpleasant incident.