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SO - Patur in regards to draft for Israeli citizen living a

 
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nanny24/7




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 1:51 am
So I think a spin off is best.

nanny24/7 wrote:
I wonder if instead of venting we can perhaps get some practical advice for some people.
Perhaps I should start a spin off?
I know someone an adult male in a similar kind of situation who lives in the U.S. and basically really tried working with the embassy to get an Israeli passport and see if he can be exempt from the army.
But
He didn't have the necessary documents to prove citizenship and get the passport.
But when he ever went to Israel he couldn't get a Visa to stay for long and would get held up at the airport for hours when trying to return to the U.S.
basically he was born in U.S., then made aliyah as a young child and became a full Israeli citizen then. The Aliyah ended up failing and the whole family returned to the U.S. after a short while. His parents are quite disabled which is why they misplaced all documents and don't have these things in order.
So somehow even though he can't get the password they still recognize his name and perhaps date of birth if he travels to Israel to require him to draft to the army and/or have an Israeli passport.
He says he heard that the army shouldn't be such an issue if he can get the proper paperwork done since he left Israel as a young child and never lived there since. But getting the paperwork done seems well... quite complicated.
I am guessing his best bet may be to purposely plan a trip to Israel, and then go down to the proper government offices while there? Instead of just working with the embassy in the U.S. which wasn't so helpful or successful thus far?
Just to be clear the only paperwork he actually has are his U.S. documents like birth certificate, social security card, passport, etc...
He has NO Israeli documents from his old citizenship there, nor any proof that he ever even lived in Israel at all....
Edited for typos, but at this tired hour I am sure I left out more typos so please excuse....


Last edited by nanny24/7 on Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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WhatFor




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 1:57 am
I'm sorry I have no advice for this, but you might get more on-point answers if your title is something like "Patur for Israeli national living abroad".
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shabbatiscoming




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:00 am
Im sorry but your scenario does not make any sense. If someone makes aliyah, they get an ID number. It is forever in "the system". And as for documentation, there has to be a way to find it. Its not possible that neither the embassy or the consulate in america has nothing and even if that were the case, if he were to go to israel and they would stop him, then there is the info. If someone is stopped, on the way out or in (I forgot which direction it happens) that means the person's id number is showing up as a citizen.
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nanny24/7




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:03 am
WhatFor wrote:
I'm sorry I have no advice for this, but you might get more on-point answers if your title is something like "Patur for Israeli national living abroad".

Thank you
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abound




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:03 am
Did he ever put effort into taking care of it, he may need a few weeks in Israel to sort it out but can probably take care of it mostly from abroad.
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rivkam




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:04 am
I dont know what misrad Hapnim are requesting but he could get old records from his school in Israel and maybe even medical records to prove that he lived in israel.
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amother




Smokey


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:19 am
I would try working with an Israeli immigration lawyer. They do this sort of thing.
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amother




Lavender


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:48 am
I know a lot of people in this situation and there is really no good solution.
The bureaucracy is terrible. If he doesn't want to serve then he SHOULD NOT GO TO ISRAEL TO DEAL WITH IT.

He should try to speak to other people qho have successfully dealt with this.
I don't know anyone who has.
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etky




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 2:55 am
shabbatiscoming wrote:
Im sorry but your scenario does not make any sense. If someone makes aliyah, they get an ID number. It is forever in "the system". And as for documentation, there has to be a way to find it. Its not possible that neither the embassy or the consulate in america has nothing and even if that were the case, if he were to go to israel and they would stop him, then there is the info. If someone is stopped, on the way out or in (I forgot which direction it happens) that means the person's id number is showing up as a citizen.


Indeed.
I came as a child with my parents, both teachers who spent their sabbatical year here.
After the year we returned to the States as planned.
They somewhat unwittingly 'made aliya' and we all got ID numbers.
Years later, when I went to the interior ministry at age 18 to officially become an olah, lo and behold I was already 'in the system' and my old ID number popped up.
Same thing happened when my Dad decided finally to officiallly make aliya, some 30 years after the sabbatical spent here in the mid-seventies.
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notshanarishona




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 7:52 am
So we are Israeli citizens but went back to the U.S. a little over a year ago . What do I need to do so my son (born in the us ) won't have trouble in the future?
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amother




Floralwhite


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 8:01 am
I would call the israeli consulate in the city in which I live.
I would not go to E"Y to deal with it if a male.
I would try to find people who have similar situations and ask them how they have dealt with it.
In the past, frum females can go to bais din in E"Y and declare themselves frum and receive a "patur" exemption from obligation to serve. And in fact, this does need to be done in E"Y ime.
For men, frum men living abroad with israeli citizenship or even one Israeli parent have a different obligation regarding serving/giyus (being drafted) and I would check very well with consulate and others before going to E"Y to avoid unnecessary complications.
What do frum men living in E"Y have to show in order not to be drafted? This is the route I would pursue and file the necessary documents. Perhaps yeshivas particularly in E"Y would know what needs to be done officially. Or a rabbi there, some frum israeli male connection may be able to provide the necessary information as to how best to proceed.
hatzlocha
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rzab




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 8:13 am
The first thing your friend needs is his mispar zehut. His identification number. They clearly have it on record. Unless he has that he won't be able to do anything else. He should ask in the embassy, or in Misrad hapnim while he is in Israel. The truth is they might be able to give it to him when he clears customs going into Israel
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ora_43




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 8:50 am
notshanarishona wrote:
So we are Israeli citizens but went back to the U.S. a little over a year ago . What do I need to do so my son (born in the us ) won't have trouble in the future?

The main thing is to report his birth to an Israeli consulate, so that he won't have a bureaucratic nightmare as an adult (children of citizens can't make aliya the traditional way, they have to get citizenship through their parent - which means going back however many years to prove they were born to their parent, which gets complicated).

If he comes to Israel to study as a young adult, while remaining a US resident, contact an Israeli consulate to make sure you have all his paperwork (providing US residency) in order so that he won't be stopped at the airport.
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ora_43




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 8:52 am
What does he want Israeli citizenship for? If he's planning to live here, getting an exemption from service is much more complicated than if he plans to keep living overseas and just needs an Israeli passport in order to travel to and from Israel as a citizen.
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nanny24/7




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 3:09 pm
ora_43 wrote:
What does he want Israeli citizenship for? If he's planning to live here, getting an exemption from service is much more complicated than if he plans to keep living overseas and just needs an Israeli passport in order to travel to and from Israel as a citizen.

The latter
He plans to keep living in the U.S. and just travel with an Israeli passport to and from Israel when needed as a citizen.
My understanding is that he still needs to do the necessary paperwork for a patur even if living abroad.
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ora_43




 
 
 


Post  Mon, Sep 16 2019, 3:23 pm
nanny24/7 wrote:
The latter
He plans to keep living in the U.S. and just travel with an Israeli passport to and from Israel when needed as a citizen.
My understanding is that he still needs to do the necessary paperwork for a patur even if living abroad.

Not really. As a citizen living abroad, all he has to do is show that he lives abroad. He's not subject to mandatory conscription if he's not an Israeli resident.

If he was a citizen living in Israel and trying to get a true exemption from service it would be much more complicated.

It's the proving citizenship that will be the hard part. I agree with previous posters that he should start by getting his ID number. It sounds like he could just set aside a few days to deal with it during his next trip to Israel. Although a lawyer who deals with citizenship could probably help the process go faster, if he wants.
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