Know anyone in New Orleans?

Mandy

Fri, Sep 02 2005, 11:27 am

I think that all or most chassidic concepts have a source in nigleh, as far as I know, so I am sure that there are many gemaros that talk about hashgacha pratis. I was just pointing out that there are those who disagree, like the rambam. I still don't really understand how we can invoke hashgacha pratis at the same times as we claim the reason for this devastation is a punishment for Gush Katif. The people who were harmed, as far as I know, had nothing to do with the disengagement, by and large. So either you say that the country as a whole is being punished, in which case hashgacha pratis doesn't really apply or you say that each person who was harmed had a specific reason that was decided upon by Hashem and we don't really know what it is. Do you see the question- global explanations of punishment sort of negate hashgacha pratis, I think.

Rivka

Sat, Sep 03 2005, 7:41 pm

Maybe, but I don';t think thousands of Jews died in Gush Katif. I think this has nought to do with Israel, infact it might be to do with what another poster above said. The place was filled with tuma, so like the mabul Hashem flooded it...apparently the place the Tsunami hit last year was also a place of tuma. But it doesn't mean the innocent don't get swept up in it as well.
I don't think anyone should be rejoicing at all, no matter what that quote meant, because every tragedy that happens you can bet Jews will be affected by it.
The only time we can truly rejoice is when Moshiach comes.

TzenaRena

Sun, Sep 04 2005, 5:51 am

1stimer wrote:

Quote:

However, enemies of Hashem and the Jewish peoples' downfall we do celebrate.

So how comes, we spill wine on pesach when we mention the macos? How comes we don't say full hallel on last day pesach (day that egyptians drowned in yam suf?) In fact I have heard that we don't say hallel on purim is because of Haman's downfall. So u can't just say that we do celebrate!

Here are some explanations why we pour the wine off by the makkos:

(from the Haggadah "ki yishalcha Bincha" compiled by Rabbi Moshe Bogomilsky)
Question: why do we pour off from the cup when reciting these three(dam v'eish..), the ten plagues and the three acronyms?
Answer:
There is an opinion in the Jerusalem Talmud (Pesachim10:1, see also Midrash Rabbah, Bereishit 88:5) that the four cups we drink at the Seder are an allusion to the four cups of wrath which Hashem will ultimately make the nations of the world drink. Pouring off drops from the cup symbolizes that what the Egyptians received is only a drop in comparison to what awaits the nations of the world in the future. (Beer Miriam)

Alternatively, the removal of the wine from the cup symbolizes the fact that after each plague the Egyptians lost a small portion of their resistance and strength. (the GRA)

From the Haggadah of the Alter Rebbe (the Baal HaTanya): "when saying the following words -'blood and fire and pillars of smoke' -spill three times from the wine in the cup into a broken dish. Do not remove wine by dipping a finger, but by spilling from the cup itself. (Have in mind that the cup symbolizes the aspect of malchus which contains an aspect of 'anger and indignation'. By means of our faculty of binah[understanding] we pour out [the aspect of 'anger and indignation'] by spilling from the wine in the cup into a broken dish which represents kelipah I.e. that which is called accursed [the principle of evil]).

From the Rebbe's Haggadah explaining the Alter Rebbe's comments:
In Darchei Moshe( from the Remo) and brought in the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch that the 16 spillings are symbolic of the sword of HaKaosh Baruch Hu, the angel appointed for avengement,(see Maavar Yabok discourse 3, ch. 9). Therefore one should have in mind that the punishments of wrath should go on the wine which he spills into the broken vessel, but what is left in the kos should be considered wine that gladdens.

TzenaRena

Sun, Sep 04 2005, 6:40 am

Mandy wrote:

We all try to find reason in tragedy, but sometimes I think we try too hard. Some horrible events are not to be understood by us, ever and it see

Mandy wrote:

This is a chassidic concept. The rambam in more nevuchim did not agree.

Actually, in Hilchos Taaniyos Ch. 1 the Rambam writes that it is achzorius to say that a disastrous event is Mikreh Nikris, a random happening.

halacha1)It is a positive commandment from the Torah to cry out and blow the trumpets about every misfortune that befalls the public. As it says 'on the opressor who aflicts you, and you shall blow the trumpets'. That is to say every thing that will cause you distress, such as drought, pestilence, and locust and the like, cry out upon them and sound (the chazozros).

halacha 2) And this matter is from the ways of Teshuva. That at a time that a tzarah comes, and they will cry out about it, and they will blow(the trumpets), all will know that it was for their bad deeds that it was bad for them, as it states 'your sins have caused ... and this will cause to remove the distress from upon them.

halacha 3) However, if they will not cry out and blow but will say this thing that happened to us is from minhag haolam, and this disaster is a coincidental occurence. This is a way of cruelty, and causes them to be attached to their evil deeds. And the tzarah will add on additional tzaros. This is what it says in the Torah ' If you will go with me with keri happenstance, I will also go with you with 'chamas keri' wrath of happenstance. That is to say, when I will bring upon you a disaster in order that you do teshuva, if you will say that it is keri a coincidence, I will add upon you the wrath of that incidence.

Mandy

Sun, Sep 04 2005, 10:19 am

Quote:

In More Nevuchim 3:51, the rambam writes :

We have already stated in the chapters which treat of Divine Providence, that Providence watches over every rational being according to the amount of intellect which that being possesses. Those who are perfect in their perception of God, whose mind is never separated from Him, enjoy always the influence of Providence. But those who, perfect in their knowledge of God, turn their mind sometimes away from God, enjoy the presence of Divine Providence only when they meditate on God; when their thoughts are engaged in other matters, divine Providence departs from them...

Hence it appears to me that it is only in times of such neglect that some of the ordinary evils befall a prophet or a perfect and pious man: and the intensity of the evil is proportional to the duration of those moments, or to the character of the things that thus occupy their mind. Such being the case, the great difficulty is removed that led philosophers to assert that Providence does not extend to every individual, and that man is like any other living being in this respect, viz., the argument based on the fact that good and pious men are afflicted with great evils. We have thus explained this difficult question even in accordance with the philosophers' own principles. Divine Providence is constantly watching over those who have obtained that blessing which is prepared for those who endeavour to obtain it. If man frees his thoughts from worldly matters, obtains a knowledge of God in the right way, and rejoices in that knowledge, it is impossible that any kind of evil should befall him while he is with God, and God with him. When he does not meditate on God, when he is separated from God, then God is also separated from him; then he is exposed to any evil that might befall him; for it is only that intellectual link with God that secures the presence of Providence and protection from evil accidents. Hence it may occur that the perfect man is at times not happy, whilst no evil befalls those who are imperfect; in these cases what happens to them is due to chance. (Friedlander translation)
Thus, those who are not meditating on God lose their Individual Providence. When one is not thinking about God, "chance" rules over one's life and evil can, therefore, occur to a righteous person.

So from this section, it seems that the rambam believed in random events, and that people on a very high madreiga are protected from these events. According to this view, then, the tragedy in New Orleans would be seen as a natural disaster ( not punishment for Gush Katif) and tzaddikim were spared. I am not saying that the rambam's approach is the only correct one at all. I am just clarifying that the issue of hashgacha pratis is more complicated than it seems. It is also difficult to resolve the idea that Hashem is punishing everyone for the disengagement with the idea of hashgacha pratis because that would need to mean that each person affected by the hurricane was somehow directly responsible for gush katif.

chavamom

Sun, Sep 04 2005, 10:39 am

Mandy - I think what you quoted is refering to a period of 'hester panim' (when G-d, kveyachol, 'hides his face') when the righteous have the same fate as the 'klal' (general population).

I am not an expert on the Rambam, but my understanding is that while he believed that the world was created to behave in a certain fashion according to certain rules (the sun rises in the morning, it sets in the evening for example), he did not negate the idea of 'hashgacha pratis'. I have never, never, never heard anyone claim that Hash-m 'wound up the world and let it go' like a wind up toy with no jurisdiciton over what happens outside of the 'Why Bad Things Happen to Good People' Conservative theology.

sarahd

Sun, Sep 04 2005, 3:20 pm

SaraYehudis wrote:

Actually, in Hilchos Taaniyos Ch. 1 the Rambam writes that it is achzorius to say that a disastrous event is Mikreh Nikris, a random happening.

I would like to point out that this is not a call for us to decide what other people did to deserve their tzaros. If you are spending your time self-righteously trying to figure out why the people of New Orleans deserved what they got, then you're totally missing the Rambam's message. It's a call for personal self-introspection - to decide what YOU are doing wrong that caused Hashem to bring tzaros upon the world.

Motek

Sun, Sep 04 2005, 9:17 pm

No need to do so "self-righteously." Ever hear Rabbi Avigdor Miller z'l Sarahd? Know what he said about "deviants"? Know what he said about hearing about the "wicked" in the news and teaching your children that Hashem is in charge etc. etc.

(sorry for those who never heard of him or heard him, R' Miller was an extraordinary man, a tremendous talmid chacham, and quite outspoken on Right and Wrong. He absolutely disdained moral wishy-washyness. And Mandy, R' Miller, an American born gadol, was one of the few who went to Europe to learn in the pre-war European yeshivos. R' Miller, when talking about the Holocaust described how most Jews in Europe were not frum, how Shabbos was desecrated publicly in Slabodka, and how Hashem tells us in the Torah what will happen if we abandon the Torah.)

stem

Sun, Sep 04 2005, 9:54 pm

I read somewhere that the percentage of American refugees from the Hurricane kartina relative to the US population, is the exact percentage of Israeli Gaza refugees relative to the Israeli population.

After thinking about all the similarities, I came the conclusion that we should not think of it as "Hashem is avenging what happened in Israel by letting it happen in the US", but rather: We might think to ourselves that we don't live in Gaza, we don't even live in Israel. We have nothing to worry about. As we know, America Jewery was not exactly up-in-arms about the events in Israel. Hashem is showing us, that it could happen anywhere, to anyone. It's His will, and he can make these tragedies happen in the form of a political disengagement, or a natural disaster.

deedee

Mon, Sep 05 2005, 9:59 am

Quote:

The need is urgent! Hurricane Katrina has left hundreds of thousands of people homeless, their homes, their businesses,
all of their belongings have been destroyed... washed away . . .

They need all the help we can give them,
as fast as we can possibly get it to them,
to rebuild their lives, to restore their homes, their businesses, their communities!

The crisis is severe. We are doing everything we can to alleviate the stress
and dislocation. Join hands with Chabad Lubavitch. Show you care! Send your generous contribution to the Jewish Hurricane Relief Fund now and let's work together towards the rebuilding and recovery of families affected by Hurricane Katrina.

Mail checks to:
Jewish Hurricane Relief Fund
770 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, NY 11213
www.JewishHurricaneRelief.com - 718-744-4000

© 2005 Chabad Lubavitch World Headquarters - All rights reserved.
This email is being sent to you via Lubavitch.com.

it was pointed out to me that this link might be a more direct place to send donations...
http://www.chabadneworleans.co.....06457

Last edited by deedee on Mon, Sep 05 2005, 8:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

Pickle Lady

Mon, Sep 05 2005, 3:55 pm

I wanted to post that a woman who posted on this site a few times, Chana613 lives (or lived) in New Orleans. She has K"AH 5 children. she is(was) a teacher at a chabad day school in New Orleans. Her family is now homeless after this devestation. B"H her family was able to excape with barely what they were able to put into the car. Familes where her oldest daughter was going to school have put them up temporaly. Friends of her online have set up a way to send her money to help out (pm me and I can send the link). But who know when they will be allowed back into their homes and what will be left of it. She is a fellow jewish mommy. This has not just devestated strangers but our fellow jews.

Motek

Mon, Sep 05 2005, 9:34 pm

Pickle Lady wrote:

This has not just devestated strangers but our fellow jews.

as Rashi says in parshas Noach, 6:13 regarding the Flood, wherever you find immorality and idol worship, chaos comes to the world and kills good and bad alike

and with the 10th plague in Egypt, the Jews had to remain indoors because, "Permission was given to the destroyer to destroy and he doesn't distinguish between the wicked and the righteous."

so, sorry to hear about the suffering our fellow Jews are going through (boruch Hashem, as far as I know anyway, all Jews are accounted for)

as far as how this Rashi fits with Hashgacha Pratis - it's explained in sefarim that when a human king or judge deals with a defendant, he can only deal with the person in front of him and cannot take all ramifications into account.

But when Hashem does something, every single detail is accounted for, the person's family members, friends, acquaintances, colleagues, the people who will hear and read about it, etc.