What makes one frum or not frum?

simba

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 2:41 pm

jewishmom6 wrote:

If one does not keep shabbos, they cant be counted in for a minyan?

So where does these 3 mitzvos come from if not from halacha?

If someone desecrates shabbos in public they cannot be counted for a minyan. The halachic term is מחלל שבת הפרהסיא.

People who count those who drove to shul as part of their minyan are usually relying on the fact that this person is halachically a תינוק שנשבא, someone who was not taught the halacha and is therefore not חייב.

shyshira

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 2:44 pm

jewishmom6 wrote:

If one does not keep shabbos, they cant be counted in for a minyan?

So where does these 3 mitzvos come from if not from halacha?

I think there were useful insights here.

https://judaism.stackexchange......-a-cr

ora_43

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 2:45 pm

jewishmom6 wrote:

because I was having this argument/discussion with my dh and curious what other peoples takes are on it.

Dont take it further.

My dh was saying that if a guy doesnt do tefillin and basic halacha technically he would not be considered frum. I didnt agree with him.

this has nothing to do with yeshivish...

Interesting.

One idea - maybe it comes down to why he isn't doing it?

If a man keeps kashrut and Shabbat but not tefillin, and says about tefillin, "I'm just so busy, I never seem to get around to it," I'd definitely consider him frum.

OTOH what if he says "I don't believe that's a mitzvah, I think the rabbis made it up"? I'm not sure if I'd consider him frum then.

I think that someone who keeps the "big 3" mitzvot is frum even if they don't manage to keep a bunch of others. But there's a certain level of belief involved, too. They have to at least be open to the possibility that the mitzvot, as taught to us today, are part of a chain going back to Hashem giving the Torah at Sinai.

OOTforlife

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 3:03 pm

ora_43 wrote:

This is approximately how I see it too.

princessleah

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 3:56 pm

There's a lot of room between "frum" and "secular."
What about a Conservative Rabbi who davens 3x/day and puts on teffilin every day, but does it at a shul with no mechitzah?
What about a person who keeps shabbat and kashrut but drives to shul-- but nowhere else on Shabbat?
What about a yeshiva student who makes out with his fiancee?
Who's "frum" in these scenarios and who is not? And definitely none of them would be considered "secular."

jewishmom6

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 4:01 pm

princessleah wrote:

I would think that they are all frum.

Just One

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 4:10 pm

jewishmom6 wrote:

What do you consider a man "frum/religios" and when do you consider a man secular?

If one keeps Taharas Hamishpacha, Kashrus & Shabbos but nothin else would you consider him "frum"?

What does being 'frum mean anyway? I believe it is a purely cultural term and if we are talking in cultural terms then it might as well be defined by ethnic dress such as white shirt and black skirt. There is no criteria in halacha (Except for what was mentioned above about being shomer Shabbos).
Hashem definitely doesn't judge us based on status whether cultural, self imposed or whatever. He knows where we are holding today, where we were yesterday and where we will be tomorrow.
He gave us 613 mitzvos. He wants us to keep them all. Yet only he knows the strengths and weaknesses, internal and environmental that he implanted in our lives and judges accordingly

Raisin

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 4:25 pm

princessleah wrote:

I don't know if a conservative Rabbi would want to be called frum...

I would call someone like that observant of some mitzvos. Or traditional. (there is an Israeli term, masoroti, which means they keep kosher, have shabbos and yom tov meals, but not overly strict over halacha) I have people in my community who keep shabbos and kosher but not mikva. People who keep mikva but not shabbos or strict kosher. Many many Jews who keep some form of kashrus, whether it is only buying kosher meat or eating treif meat but not eating pork and shellfish, or strict kashrus according to halacha. There are a very small handful of families who keep strictly shabbos, kashrus and mikva and I would describe as frum. And yes, I think that extends to putting on tefillin daily but everyone has their struggles.

singleagain

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 4:32 pm

Raisin wrote:

I don't know if a conservative Rabbi would want to be called frum...
.

If frum is just the yiddish word for religious. Why shouldn't a proud conservative Rabbi be religious according to conservative rules.

Raisin

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 4:38 pm

singleagain wrote:

If frum is just the yiddish word for religious. Why shouldn't a proud conservative Rabbi be religious according to conservative rules.

I doubt he would be using that word about himself. Observant, maybe.

thunderstorm

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 5:02 pm

simba wrote:

I clarified. Sorry for the flat statement.

Thanks for the clarification. My father is not so frum (sometimes not frum at all, depending on his mood) and he davens in a Chabad shul where most people are not Shomer Shabbos completely and they were always counted as minyan. So I was wondering. The only person they did not count in their minyan was a non Jewish boyfriend of a woman who davens there , who was interested in Judaism and actually looked frum and knew how to daven from a siddur. I’m assuming he converted by now, who knows...

Cheiny

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 5:20 pm

jewishmom6 wrote:

While only Hashem can and should judge others, basically if a person is frum, spiritual and wants to do the will of Hashem, he would put on Tefillin. We are not given the option of picking and choosing which mitzvos we want to keep and which not.

Cheiny

Tue, Sep 17 2019, 5:21 pm

urban gypsy wrote:

I know for a fact that is incorrect.

They also are not allowed to be buried in a Jewish cemetery according to a shiur I heard from a well respected Rov.

Last edited by Cheiny on Tue, Sep 17 2019, 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total