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DH is a BT who hasn't integrated into yeshivish culture
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amother




OP


Post  Fri, Sep 20 2019, 5:40 pm
It's only a couple of hours till Shabbos so maybe no one will see this until M"SH, but I need to get this off my chest. DH is a sweet, caring guy who became frum through one of the big BT yeshivos and spent years learning there. We met and married in the States and are raising our family in an OOT yeshivish community. Our kids are mostly teens now.

As the kids get older, more and more issues are coming up with him not knowing the cultural nuances and not having the same mindset as other fathers. I'm BT too but am better at navigating the cultural differences. He doesn't pick up on cultural norms, and he's not willing to listen when the kids and I ask him not to do things that are considered pas nisht in our community. He hates being told what to do, and doesn't understand the impact his actions have on the kids. He's very careful about halacha, but when it comes to community norms he laughs them off. It's really not right! If you choose to put your kids in yeshivishe schools, then you need to behave like the other parents in the school

Has anyone dealt with this type of situation successfully?
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amother




Lavender


Post  Fri, Sep 20 2019, 5:47 pm
Just curious, why did you choose the yeshivish way?
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amother




Orchid


Post  Fri, Sep 20 2019, 5:49 pm
You and your dh should sit down with a mentor whom you both respect to discuss this. You may be right, he may be right you may each be partially right. You need guidance from someone bigger than both of you though.
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amother




Coral


Post  Fri, Sep 20 2019, 5:53 pm
I’m curious for examples.

Maybe he’s just not into the nahrishkeit. Many of these cultural norms are just that. It could be a personality thing. Also maybe he’s a bit of a non conformist. That’s fine too. I agree you (and certainly not the kids. That’s chutzpah!) shouldn’t be telling him what to do. If he’s following Halacha the rest is gravy
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Rubber Ducky




 
 
 


Post  Fri, Sep 20 2019, 6:08 pm
I would also like to hear examples.
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amother




Lawngreen


Post  Fri, Sep 20 2019, 6:16 pm
My dh is also like that. I have learned that the only solution is to accept and love him for who he is.
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LovesHashem




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 1:18 pm
Does he have a Rabbi? I was brought up by BT's a a good Rabbi can stress the importance of community norms and how it can even be connected to halacha.

We are supposed to follow the majority, and follow our rabbanim according to pirkei avos. We shouldn't embarrass people either. There's other halachos a Rabbi can bring up and give examples how different community norms or yeshivish nuances can fall under these categories.

I definitely think norms that affect your kids, can definitely fall under these categories.
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imasoftov




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 2:08 pm
LovesHashem wrote:
Does he have a Rabbi? I was brought up by BT's a a good Rabbi can stress the importance of community norms and how it can even be connected to halacha.

We are supposed to follow the majority, and follow our rabbanim according to pirkei avos. We shouldn't embarrass people either. There's other halachos a Rabbi can bring up and give examples how different community norms or yeshivish nuances can fall under these categories.

I definitely think norms that affect your kids, can definitely fall under these categories.

While certainly we should follow our rabbis, we don't know without more details if the "pas nisht" things that OP is referring to are things that her husband's rabbi would give him a psak about or if they're connected to halacha. As to following the majority, the relevant source I can think of in Pirkei Avot is 4:7 which says not to say "accept my view" to the majority. From the context this seems to be directed to a judge on a beit din where the other judges want to rule differently, not a general rule that every person should act like the majority. And even if it did apply outside of deliberations in a beit din, a person who acts differently isn't asking everyone else to change their behavior. Or perhaps you meant something else in Pirkei Avot?
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DrMom




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 2:20 pm
Without specific examples, it's impossible to know how to respond.
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naomi2




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 8:51 pm
You know kids are always embarrassed of their parents no matter what, right?
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chestnut




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 9:12 pm
Another vote for examples.
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DVOM




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 9:14 pm
You hit a raw nerve for me, OP.

An acquaintance of mine will not allow her husband to ride a bike to work, because it's not 'done' here in Lakewood. Another friend discourages her daughters very passionate love of animals, because it isn't a 'popular' interest in her circles and would make her daughter look 'weird'. I feel so bad for these people, making themselves smaller, shaving off little bits of themselves to fit. I wouldn't be able to live like that, letting community norms dictate my every move.

There is a reason you fell in love with your husband, OP, married him, built a life with him. If he was exactly like everyone else, he wouldn't be the man you love. I have no idea what sorts of community norms he's bucking, but be careful not to squash him in the interest of conformity. I am a woman who does not conform to every norm in my community, and my husband values and respects my individuality. His acceptance of me is one of the most precious gifts that he gives me. I'm not worried about your kids. They will take their cue from you. If you respect your husband's choices, so will they.
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amother




Tan


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 9:32 pm
you say OOT yesheivish- is everyone there actually yesheivish? Often times out of town allows for more lee way. My dd's are in the local "day school" which leans yesheivish due to the community we are in. My dh is a bt who is very against a lot of yesheivish "cultural" stuff. I'm FFB and I lean more yesheivish. We are different. It bothers me that my dh teachers my children non jewish music..my guess is that you are referring more to things like colored shirts...

my dd came home one day saying one of her classmates said that her parents don't let non Jewish music because it has an adverse affect on your neshama. Could be, but lets just say I saw how my dh and this girl father behaved in a certain situation and I would take my dh with his yashrus any day.

As DVOM said "There is a reason you fell in love with your husband, OP, married him, built a life with him. If he was exactly like everyone else, he wouldn't be the man you love."

I really think that's true.
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TwinsMommy




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 9:38 pm
my kids aren't neurotypical enough to care about all of this stuff (one of the things I adore about them), but we're very out of the box and don't "fit" into our community (or into ANY community!) We're BT's and follow halacha but as far as minhagim which we think are shtuss----- meh.

I don't mind respectful questions.... "how come you wear a colored shirt?" "why do you wear cargo pants"? But when people talk behind our back about my husband's clothing... it's really unacceptable and shows me more about their personality than about my husband's lack of conformity.

Move to our city--- you'll have us to fit in with--- fellow BT's who don't care about the gashmius stuff. I call us modern Orthodox but we live in a Yeshivish community. But if we moved to the MO community, they'd call us Yeshivish. We can't win, nor do I want to.
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familyfirst




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 10:19 pm
Echoing everyone else’s sentiments

You knew when you married your husband that was a non conformist to an extent, otherwise he would have followed the way he was brought up in

Give the man breathing room. He gave up enough to become a BT (in a good way, but still gave up)

Stop worrying about what others will say. You’re kids will find something else to knit pick

And don’t be surprised if I’m a few years the very habits you are trying to stop become community norms (I remember when only BT’s wore long flowy skirts- till it became trendy for everyone at that point in time)

Embrace his individuality and move on. Teach your kids respect. A much better life skill than harassing their father
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amother




Linen


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 11:10 pm
DVOM wrote:
An acquaintance of mine will not allow her husband to ride a bike to work, because it's not 'done' here in Lakewood.

Just pointing out that my husband used to work in the BMG office and he rode his bike to and from work daily. And he wasn't the only one.
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imasinger




 
 
 


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 11:14 pm
My DH is FFB, MO. He davka wears tweed suits or a sports jacket and colored shirts to the events run by my kids' yeshivish schools. He says his dark suits are for Shabbos or other more significant times.

I third what amother Tan is saying. OOT communities tend to be more accepting, and it is better to put your SB over the community norms. TBH, most people in an OOT yeshivish community will respect that reason.
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amother




OP


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 11:31 pm
One example: in our community men and women don't have extended friendly conversations with each other unless they're related. My DH doesn't get that, and he's a friendly guy. When my kids' friends come over, DH loves to shmooze with them. It was sort of okay when they were little, but now most of my girls are teenagers, and it makes them and their friends really uncomfortable! I don't mean that he's creepy. He's definitely not shmoozing in a gross way. He's just friendly and will sit there asking them all kinds of questions about how school's going and stuff. If he's home and they're having a snack, he'll sit down with the girls and their friends and chat! And when he's driving carpool he'll insert himself into their conversations and give his own opinions and even give them mussar if they're saying lashon hara. It's really embarrassing for my girls. He doesn't get it and thinks we're being overly sensitive. Some of my girls' friends have stopped coming to the house because of him.

That's the type of thing I'm talking about. I'm a pretty chilled person and I could care less about a lot of stuff that might bother other people, but my husband chose a yeshivish derech, he dresses in black and white, wears the hat, talks the talk, we've put our kids in this type of school and bought a house in this kind of community and we're happy to be in this community, and we've been living here for almost 20 years so it's not like he's a newbie who just doesn't know. He just won't listen when we tell him that certain things he's doing aren't socially appropriate in the world he chose. You can't have this attitude of I'll do what I want and these social norms aren't a big deal when there are children being impacted.

DH doesn't have a real Rav so that makes things hard. We have a Rav for straightforward shailos but DH doesn't have a Rav for hadracha who knows him well. I have a Rebbetzin that I'm close to but DH has always wanted to be kind of independent in that area, and it's a problem. He doesn't ask anyone in the community for advice except about stupid stuff like what the best lawnmower is, never things that really matter.
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amother




Mint


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 11:40 pm
sounds like an awkward dad situation - not specifically Yeshivish.
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amother




Coral


Post  Sat, Sep 21 2019, 11:41 pm
This isn’t a BT/yeshivish thing: this is an annoying dad thing. Totally normal for dads annoy and embarrass their kids. The fact that he’s doing so has nothing to do with being a BT:
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