Anti-Vax Links | Imamother

amother

Babypink

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 1:59 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I think if we want to be honest, we can't compare first world countries to places that have scarce or polluted water sources, inadequate nutrition, different standards of living, including medical care, etc.
We also can't compare nowadays to 50, 70, 100 years ago as far as illness and living standard. It's useless since so much has changed.
When someone says look at Africa or the Philippines or the polio outbreaks even in the 1950s, flu epidemic of 1918, to me that's like comparing the horse and buggy to today's speed rail. The equation is false to begin with.

If we want to be honest, then we need to start answering the questions and concerns of the antivax people who are looking for proofs and not for coverups.

Coverups and corruption are rampant among people in high places. So will we ever know the truth? I doubt it.

I don't understand why it's a false comparison. I had this conversation recently with an anti-vax friend who said the same thing. The reason why it's different nowadays is BECAUSE OF vaccines, as well as better hygiene and other factors. How does that make it a good idea to stop vaccinating, when the diseases still exist in some parts of the world and we live in an age of international travel?

amother

Babypink

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 2:05 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

The point I was making with the borders issue, vaccine failure, and unvaccinated adults, is that I dont believe herd immunity is what it's made out to be. I'm just not worried about any outbreaks as a result of not enough people vaccinating. I don't see proof of it. I believe there is a lot about disease that we don't yet know. Just like there is a lot about vaccines that we don't yet know.

Therefore I see no risk in not vaccinating my children. And it should definitely be a choice for people who believe in it. Because there is risk. And much about that risk we don't know because the genetics factor hasnt been studied.

What we do know is how to treat the diseases. Especially as medicine has advanced so much that the fatality rate is greatly reduced to just about 0.

With all this, I still believe people have no right to decide for others to catch their diseases- just like people have no right to force others to vax.
And therefore during the measles outbreak, anyone who planned to come to my house, I let them know that we are not vaccinated so that they have a choice. Even though I never discussed my vaccine beliefs in real life.

Can you please explain why you don't believe herd immunity exists, despite that I'm sure you've read what the cdc says? I'm asking you this honestly because I've become very frustrated with a friend and can't have this conversation irl, but I do want to understand where this is coming from.

Eta not only what the cdc says but what we see with our own eyes, like recent measles outbreaks

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 2:09 am

amother [ Crimson ] wrote:

Cholera is still around. Very much so. There have been recent outbreaks in San francisco, due to high homelessness and lack of sanitation. Definitely in third world countries.
And which plague are you referring to? Small pox? There is a vaccine, that's why. But there are still cases in non western countries that don't have access to vaccines.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/arti.....ticle
Here's a summary of cholera in the US recently. All of it came from over the border. It wasn't an epidemic and no one died.
You know of other recent cholera outbreaks in the US not mentioned on the CDC website?
(And why are we not checking for disease at the borders?)

https://www.cdc.gov/plague/faq.....#what
This is plague. Not smallpox. It's spread by rats and fleas that feed on carcasses apparently.

amother

Babypink

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 2:14 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/17/11/11-0808_article
Here's a summary of cholera in the US recently. All of it came from over the border. It wasn't an epidemic and no one died.
You know of other recent cholera outbreaks in the US not mentioned on the CDC website?
(And why are we not checking for disease at the borders?)

https://www.cdc.gov/plague/faq.....#what
This is plague. Not smallpox. It's spread by rats and fleas that feed on carcasses apparently.

Sure there are vaccine requirements.
https://citizenpath.com/immigr.....exam/

Immigrants always had to undergo medical exams. 100 years ago, some hopeful immigrants were sent back to their original country after failing medical exams at Ellis Island

amother

Puce

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 2:15 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

I can only speak for myself and I think you're right. That would be the middle ground.
But generally antivaxers are more extreme than me. I have found that some of them are more ready to accept conspiracy theories and rumors, than facts and drs' solid experience.
The thing is, modern sanitation measures, adequate nutrition, higher living standards, is common sense. You dont need science and studies to tell you that using sewer water for washing dishes will result in polio and cholera. Or that carcasses left in the street and other overcrowded filthy living conditions will cause illness and death. Etc.

Effectiveness of vaccines is harder to sell. Because if you look through history, you'll see that there were more diseases such as plague and cholera that disappeared without a vaccine.
And do you know that polio was treated effectively with citrus fruits and a series of limb exercises? But the doctors at this time fought this treatment because it was unconventional, even though it worked. We arent lacking vitamin C and rehab therapy these days.
And sanitation back then meant that the needles for smallpox vaccine were reused over and over, spreading illness and causing epidemics.
And that also the simple concepts of handwashing and sterilizing were laughed at by medical "professionals."
There is also the fact that diagnosing illness as well as treatment of disease were less than scientific in those times.
Etc etc.
So I would have to say that the statistics of early vaccine usage have got to be way off.
This is why I say, you can't compare the past to the present.
They used to treat measles patients with aspirin which caused more problems. They didnt have antibiotics for diphtheria, and proper wound care would have avoided tetanus infections. The child labor in coal mines and the like shortened the average life span as well.

What I'm trying to say is that it has to be more complicated than x number of people died from polio before the vaccine, and a much lesser number after the vaccine.
Although I do agree that vaccines in general do work to keep someone from getting ill. That is, if it's okay to count titres as immunity. It seems there is still a dispute on that amongst the scientists.

Love this. Yes I firmly believe in finding a healthy middle ground and I hate that people who "side" with me on this issue are so extreme and blind to any questions. Any questions that I have are automatically tossed out because if I ask questions I must be anti-vax. It drives me mad. (Same with a lot of religious questions btw. And I know it's the same for the crunchy extremists - if you ask questions about, say, attachment parenting, then you must not care about your kids/ you must be an idiot.)

Using sewer water in a developed country probably won't give you cholera or polio, but it will probably give you lots of other horrible stuff.

Smallpox vaccines, even not sterile, still only caused death in about 1 in 5000 cases. They were still a much better option than the disease itself.

Proper wound care doesn't prevent tetanus infections, if the wound is deep enough. Or rabies infections. Once the bacteria gets in, it's in.

Titers show a certain kind of immunity. But we believe that a person who doesn't show titers may still be immune on a cellular level. We don't have proof of that, though, and we don't usually like to play games with life-and-death stakes.

About the citrus fruits, bloodletting also used to be used to cure diseases. And in some places in Africa the cure for HIV is to have relations with as many virgins as possible. I would need to see proof for the citrus fruits being a proper cure. Also the limb exercises might help people who suffer paralysis post-polio, but they don't help people who can no longer breathe and need an iron lung.

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 2:33 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Why are we disregarding side effects like deafness and male infertility?

And I'm skeptical that no one died, no babies or elderly people with compromised immune systems?

Firstly because male infertility is from mumps, not measles. And is extremely rare.
Secondly, because the charts that compare past times to recent, are about fatality or instance of disease, as far as I've seen.
I'm not discounting that there are side effects but it's a different conversation.

(Besides, since the measles is a live virus vaccine, the side effects from the vaccine are the exact same ones as from the illness. Just to be aware. I imagine there is less chance from the vaccine as from the disease, but who is tracking ear infections after the mmr shot? And is there really less if most people are getting the vaccine and hardly anyone the disease? I don't know the answers to these questions.)

amother

Puce

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 2:43 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

Regarding the parentheses. The MMR is given at an age where ear infections are rampant anyways. I don't think it's possible to isolate which ear infections are from bottle-feeding, which are from preschool, and which maybe are from the MMR.
Also side effects from the vaccine - other than fever and general not feeling well - are rare. I also wonder how the exact numbers work out, but you're talking about one in ten thousand for some side effects, one in three million for others, whereas with the disease itself numbers are X in 100, X in 1000, (X is a whole number, not a decimal) depending on the side effect/ complication.

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 6:51 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

Because I believe it is impossible to have epidemics on the scale that once was. Because of the changes and differences.
Even when there is an outbreak of cholera, TB, measles, imported from other countries, we dont have these mass epidemics.
And do you know how many times even in the last 10 years and for sure many times before that, the CDC changed the definition of "epidemic?" What they call epidemic nowadays is nothing like it used to be.

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 7:08 am

amother [ Puce ] wrote:

I think it was possible from the whole-cell vaccine. Not from the acellular, which is what's used today.

The whole cell also wasnt a live vaccine.

Another question of mine: the live smallpox and polio vaccines did spread disease- I heard first hand how those who were vaccinated with the smallpox vaccine were instructed not to touch their scab or place of injection so as not to spread the disease to others. And the live polio vaccine sheds in human feces and is commonly found in sewage (which was used as a water source:().

The MMR and varicella vaccines are also live but in reality have only been able to give the measles or chickenpox to the person just vaccinated with it, without spreading it to others.

And pertussis vaccine does not stop transmission and one vaccinated might not realize he is ill with it as he gets a lighter case.

Yet in cancer wards and rehab centers for the elderly, I've seen signs not to enter if recently vaccinated with any live vaccine or pertussis, so as not to bring diseases there ch"v. We dont give smallpox or live polio anymore. I wonder why the mmr and varicella vaccines are included in this when the drs, drug companies, and CDC all insist they dont spread disease?

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 7:22 am

amother [ Babypink ] wrote:

I explained it several times even in the post you quoted from me.
Because the borders arent secure and we have no idea of the immunity status of tourists, visitors, and illegals.
Because vaccines fail for some people even if they're fully vaccinated.
And because lots of adult citizens dont know their immunity status either.
So herd immunity is not what they claim it is.
And once you realize that, many of the other provax arguments fall away.
Maybe I'm wrong. I'm willing to hear why and how. So far whenever I've asked this about herd immunity, I've been accused of "whataboutism" and endangering others.

As far as measles, first of all it was never eradicated completely from the US like smallpox and polio. I have heard from drs that measles, mumps, chickenpox, (maybe pertussis too, I don't remember offhand), are cyclical diseases- they flare up every few years regardless. I think we've seen that, if you check the CDCs list of outbreaks.

amother

Puce

Sun, Dec 08 2019, 7:44 am

amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:

The whole cell wasn't a live vaccine but it did have its problems, which the acellular has mostly solved (at the expense of efficacy).

Regarding smallpox, I haven't done enough research on that one because it's no longer in use and the disease has been eradicated.

Regarding polio. Firstly, the IPV - which is the one given in the US - does not shed or spread the disease to others. That's only the OPV. Secondly, when the OPV does shed, it sheds immunity. Meaning those around the vaccinated individual receive a passive vaccination. However, if there are too many unvaccinated people in a given area, the vaccine can "shed" from a "passively vaccinated" individual to another unvaccinated individual. After that happens too many times, the virus starts to mutate and those who contract it become sick, not immunized. The other thing with the OPV is that the trivalent, which vaccinates against types 1, 2, and 3, can sometimes give an individual who hasn't received the IPV, Polio Type 2. However, if an individual has received three doses of the IPV, the OPV is considered safe, especially the bivalent version which protects only against Types 1 and 3.

The MMR and MMRV rarely give the individual the disease. Technically it's possible, but on a scale of something like one in a billion. These vaccines do not shed.
Usually the only reaction is feeing flu-ey and a bit of fever, if that. Varicella, however, can be contracted after the individual has been vaccinated. Meaning the vaccine is not 100% effective. However, since it was introduced, the number of children experiencing complications from chickenpox has dropped to nearly zero. Very few are hospitalized and none of the vaccinated children have died from the disease.

Again, the pertussis vaccine does not always stop a person from becoming ill from pertussis. But a lighter case is still identifiable as pertussis. Of course once a person is ill with pertussis, that person is contagious - regardless of their vaccination status.

The signs aren't there because these vaccines shed. They're there because if you are the one in a billion who will contract the disease, it's not worth the risk to their patients to allow you in. As for pertussis, there's an assumption that if you were recently vaccinated against it, you might have been exposed to it. They don't want you here during that incubation period. (Years ago we sat in an ER next to a mom who had no idea what her son's vaccination status was, but he was whooping and it sounded like pertussis. Never found out if that's what it was, but we did go the next morning to get boosters. As do many who are exposed or possibly exposed.)