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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:18 am
I would agree that all drugs have side effects and in a perfect world, children in Samoa or in the DR Congo would be given adequate nutrition before they got sick and all of the junk food factories and restaurants around the world would close and toxic chemicals would be eliminated from the environment. Big pharma would have very few customers because we would take such good care of ourselves and each other.
I am fascinated by blue zones but every time a fast food chain moves in there, life spans become shorter and Western illnesses take hold and big pharma now has more customers.
It looks pretty clear that the food industry, the auto industry, and the fact that we spend time on social media with strangers instead of with family and friends is more to blame for the dependence on big pharma than government mandates are.
Maybe we can reverse the destruction of human health but it takes lots of commitment.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:27 am
More support for OP. We should be examining all the information we have. On everything, not just vaccines. How many times were prescription drugs recalled? Yes, modern medicine is amazing but there is such thing as too much of a good thing. Why not be openminded and see what conclusion you come up with? Research is ongoing.

For me it is not so much the studies and news articles that make me wary because drug companies can easily fudge the numbers and journalism these days is pathetic.
The drug companies test their own products. They write their own statistics and results. Conflict of interest?
The drug companies also pour money into advertising. Into the media. Into political campaigns. Into the pockets of top doctors that travel the world in order to speak on the benefits of vaccines. Conflict of interest?
When the head of the CDC seamlessly moves into a job at Merck- conflict of interest?
When I look into how these companies started up and their roles in the Holocaust- that makes me crrriiinnnggge.
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amother




Seagreen
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:44 am
amother [ Lime ] wrote:
And hashem should help that you shouldn't learn the hard way. While you're at it kindly move your family to a remote island far away from civilization. Thanks .

I Unfortunately learned already hard way.
And If you have a problem you could keep your kids isolated to prevent any germs or unvaccinated ppl that dont have diseases. Dont take them on the street. So maybe you move to the island. theyll be safer there
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amother




Indigo
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:47 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
OP, I'm on same page as you. But I dont think u need to bother posting those links. This isn't going to change anyones opinion. I learned to swallow when ppl talk about importance and safety of vaccines. Nothing will change their mind. Hashem should help they shouldn't learn the hard way.


LOL LOL
If anyone will learn the hard way it's anti vaxxers.
Since there is NO reason not to vaxx!!! Banging head
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amother




Apricot
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:51 am
Antivaxx is a slur. The correct term is "Typhoid Mary Identifying".
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amother




Copper
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 8:55 am
I've often wondered what the tipping point is that turns someone who chooses not to vaccinate themselves and their families in to an anti-vaxx proselytizer (which is how I view what OP is doing here).

Edited - whomever 'hearted' my post - I'd like to hear what you have to say.
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dancingqueen




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 9:01 am
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
I'm an educated consumer. I don't trust anyone blindly. I am aware that in a capitalist society, *all* manufacturers of *all* products do not produce them because they truly care about my welfare, rather their main motive is to make money. There is nothing technically wrong with that, it's how capitalism works, how innovation is driven, how standards of living rise. Vaccines are no exception. Therefore, as a consumer, I keep all that in mind when buying or using any manufactured product. I make careful decisions about which products I and my family consume. I make careful decisions about which drugs to use when. I go into things with my eyes wide open. I am aware when I take drugs that *all* drugs have side effects, and that the side effects can be a lot more common than they care to admit, and that there may be long term side effects that we don't yet know about. I am careful about drug interactions. I look into non-drug alternatives before resorting to drugs. You better believe that when I decide to use a drug I have my reservations, and feel that it is truly necessary, and that the risk of not taking it outweighs the risk of taking it. As a family, we have used chemo on occasion for a seriously ill member, ditto for abx and antivirals. We have used vaccines too a couple of times. But the heavy mandated childhood vaccine schedule simply doesn't pass scrutiny for most of my children most of the time. Why is that so hard to understand?


-Because if you think that pharmaceutical companies are evil and willing to hurt children for a profit then why would you trust them with your healthcare.
—are you a medical expert? Do you understand drug interactions? Do you check your non drug alternatives for interactions? Does it bother you that homeopathic medicines are not regulated and have caused deaths?
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 9:18 am
amother [ Coffee ] wrote:
I'm an educated consumer. I don't trust anyone blindly. I am aware that in a capitalist society, *all* manufacturers of *all* products do not produce them because they truly care about my welfare, rather their main motive is to make money. There is nothing technically wrong with that, it's how capitalism works, how innovation is driven, how standards of living rise. Vaccines are no exception. Therefore, as a consumer, I keep all that in mind when buying or using any manufactured product. I make careful decisions about which products I and my family consume. I make careful decisions about which drugs to use when. I go into things with my eyes wide open. I am aware when I take drugs that *all* drugs have side effects, and that the side effects can be a lot more common than they care to admit, and that there may be long term side effects that we don't yet know about. I am careful about drug interactions. I look into non-drug alternatives before resorting to drugs. You better believe that when I decide to use a drug I have my reservations, and feel that it is truly necessary, and that the risk of not taking it outweighs the risk of taking it. As a family, we have used chemo on occasion for a seriously ill member, ditto for abx and antivirals. We have used vaccines too a couple of times. But the heavy mandated childhood vaccine schedule simply doesn't pass scrutiny for most of my children most of the time. Why is that so hard to understand?

Same!
Ideally for my family, we would use some vaccines, at certain times.
Just like we use some prescription meds, for some people, sometimes.
I'm not someone who runs to the dr for a cold. I also don't regularly support alternative medicine. Although it worked well the twice in fifteen years I used it.
I'm wary of most products on the market and stick with the basics.
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amother




Lawngreen
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 9:27 am
southernbubby wrote:
I would agree that all drugs have side effects and in a perfect world, children in Samoa or in the DR Congo would be given adequate nutrition before they got sick and all of the junk food factories and restaurants around the world would close and toxic chemicals would be eliminated from the environment. Big pharma would have very few customers because we would take such good care of ourselves and each other.
I am fascinated by blue zones but every time a fast food chain moves in there, life spans become shorter and Western illnesses take hold and big pharma now has more customers.
It looks pretty clear that the food industry, the auto industry, and the fact that we spend time on social media with strangers instead of with family and friends is more to blame for the dependence on big pharma than government mandates are.
Maybe we can reverse the destruction of human health but it takes lots of commitment.


We probably can't reverse the destruction of human health because it would take more than commitment. It would take a reversal of the blind faith in modern medicine, making ingredients like msg, trans fat, food coloring etc. illegal or at least controlled etc.

So no, we are not hoping to change it on a global level. But we can all try to change it on an individual level, for ourselves and our families. And that's what many of us are doing. Or did, until a few immoral, unethical people in our government who know nothing about nutrition and health, only about grants from pharma, decided that I have no right to make this individual choice for my family.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:00 am
amother [ Lawngreen ] wrote:
We probably can't reverse the destruction of human health because it would take more than commitment. It would take a reversal of the blind faith in modern medicine, making ingredients like msg, trans fat, food coloring etc. illegal or at least controlled etc.

So no, we are not hoping to change it on a global level. But we can all try to change it on an individual level, for ourselves and our families. And that's what many of us are doing. Or did, until a few immoral, unethical people in our government who know nothing about nutrition and health, only about grants from pharma, decided that I have no right to make this individual choice for my family.


The immoral and unethical people didn't willfully expose infants in apartment complexes to measles and only became immoral and unethical after that happened.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:01 am
amother [ Seagreen ] wrote:
I Unfortunately learned already hard way.
And If you have a problem you could keep your kids isolated to prevent any germs or unvaccinated ppl that dont have diseases. Dont take them on the street. So maybe you move to the island. theyll be safer there


Samoa doesn't want them.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:11 am
southernbubby wrote:
The immoral and unethical people didn't willfully expose infants in apartment complexes to measles and only became immoral and unethical after that happened.

Please recognize not ALL antivaxers allowed their children to expose others. This is more personality type. Do you know how many children ill with various viruses are sent to school every day? Many people opposed to vaccines are very very careful not to send sick children out into the open. Unlike many provaxers. Please don't generalize.
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southernbubby




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:23 am
amother [ Burlywood ] wrote:
Please recognize not ALL antivaxers allowed their children to expose others. This is more personality type. Do you know how many children ill with various viruses are sent to school every day? Many people opposed to vaccines are very very careful not to send sick children out into the open. Unlike many provaxers. Please don't generalize.


The innocent suffered as a result of the guilty but the attendance at the Atrium rally made all anti-vaxers appear to be of one mind under one leadership, even if that was far from the truth.
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amother




Coffee
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:25 am
dancingqueen wrote:
-Because if you think that pharmaceutical companies are evil and willing to hurt children for a profit then why would you trust them with your healthcare.
—are you a medical expert? Do you understand drug interactions? Do you check your non drug alternatives for interactions? Does it bother you that homeopathic medicines are not regulated and have caused deaths?
That's the point. I don't trust them with my healthcare at all. I use them warily and sparingly when necessary. I don't necessarily think they're evil, but greed is the pitfall of capitalism... I'm not a credentialed medical expert, but I'm not ashamed to say I know more than a lot of doctors. The age of medical patriarchy is over, information is equally accessible to everyone. Pubmed already happened. I have a pretty good understanding of drug interactions, I know how to use google when I don't know, and I've caught contraindications when drs haven't... I wish there was a better way to regulate alternative medicine, but not over-regulate. As always, I think the private sector is a better regulator of consumerism... I use alternatives just as prudently as a I use allopathics. Capitalism and government is a double edged sword... we live in a complicated world.

ETA: oh, and every time I grudgingly make the decision to use them (NOT trust them, just use them very very grudgingly) I can assure you there is some BIG industrial complex that is at least in part to blame for having brought us to that place. Like southernbubby said, if there was no big agri, big food, big dairy, big chem, big auto, etc etc, chances are we would need very very little of big pharma.
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amother




Sienna
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:28 am
Who is infecting whom you ask? About making your own choices you want to know?

I was in a kimpeturin home. One woman who did homebirth, doesn't vaccinate, ordered special healthy foods & doesn't believe in drs was there. So she & her baby should be the healthiest right?

Well guess what? she had a nasty cold there. Then one day, her newborn had a nasty cough in nursery. She was told to take her baby to dr which she refused. They had a dr come down to check baby. They told her to pack herself home since baby can't infect others. At end, results of tests dr took, came back as RSV positive. She was told baby needs to go to hospital. She took baby HOME!!!
I daven that her baby should still be alive!

Lo & behold, next day the neighboring baby had respiratory distress. Mom took baby to dr & Dr said he is fine, (was breathing fast only sometimes) Mom didn't want to take chances & flew with Hatzoloh to hospital from there.

Now who will be safer? By these crunches, doctors are the worst enemy!
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amother




Coffee
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:30 am
southernbubby wrote:
The immoral and unethical people didn't willfully expose infants in apartment complexes to measles and only became immoral and unethical after that happened.
Their immorality didn't begin or end with the revoking of religious exemption. It began long ago when the media campaigns to villify mostly benign diseases like measles, and begin childhood immunization programs knowing *full well* that they would disrupt true herd immunity and leave the most vulnerable unprotected -- infants no longer having immunity from their mothers. This is NOT an excuse for intentionally exposing people who do not wish to be exposed. In a post-vaccine era that is completely unethical. But the chicken and egg is not so clear cut over here.
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amother




Yellow
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:32 am
amother [ Indigo ] wrote:
LOL LOL
If anyone will learn the hard way it's anti vaxxers.
Since there is NO reason not to vaxx!!! Banging head

Denying the remote possibility of harm seems a bit stupid and naive Not even the CDC says there isnt a chance of harm, they just say its unlikely and benefits outweigh the risks.
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dankbar




 
 
 
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:32 am
Chemo only sometimes? abx only sometimes? That's not the way meds work, if you dont do the full course to finish it or follow the protocol or skip doses, it doesn't work
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amother




Coffee
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:37 am
dankbar wrote:
Chemo only sometimes? abx only sometimes? That's not the way meds work, if you dont do the full course to finish it or follow the protocol or skip doses, it doesn't work
You're being a little simplistic. Drs disagree all the time on protocols, durations of treatments, etc. It's okay for a layperson to have an opinion too, or lean towards more conservative treatments if there are doctors that do things that way too. Chemo sometimes didn't mean half the protocol, it meant the full protocol of chemo for the family member for whom we decided it was truly necessary, based on diagnosis, several drs opinions etc etc etc. And yes, it was a decision that we as parents were allowed to make. Not everything is so black and white. When we start abx, we always finish the course (although if you read up in depth, this isn't so black and white either, as the length and duration of abx courses are somewhat arbitrary too...) but we don't always give the antibiotics just because the dr prescribed. It depends on the child's history, current presentation, type of infection and many many other factors.

ETA: and if you do the full protocol of chemo and don't skip doses of abx it always works?? Nooooooo... That should make you think. Drs. don't know everything. A lot of what they are doing is guesswork too.
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amother




Burlywood
 

Post  Thu, Dec 05 2019, 10:51 am
southernbubby wrote:
The innocent suffered as a result of the guilty but the attendance at the Atrium rally made all anti-vaxers appear to be of one mind under one leadership, even if that was far from the truth.

Of course it's far from the truth.
There is a spectrum of antivaxers just like theres a spectrum of provaxers. Not everyone believes exactly the same hook, line, and sinker.
It only looks the same if you think it's the same.
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